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black powder fouling and petroleum lubes

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I couldn't log in to read the threads but I do know from Black powder cartridge shooting competitively that petroleum based lube creates carbon fouling which is much harder to get out of a bore than lead fouling as it cooks on much like carbon on a cast iron skillet does when being seasoned.
Animal and vegetable fats in a bees wax carrier are what work with black powder guns, muzzle loader or cartridge.
 
OK i thought it would link.
Search "petroleum products and black powder fouling"
about the third reference is for the Cowboy Action City forum
hopefully it will open
There is a lot of black powder information there in the "dark iders den"
If that does not work let me know and I will try to copy and paste
Good luck
Bunk
 
I wouldn't put too much stock in what a Cowboy Action group says on this. They are the black powder part of the 3Gun world where everything is run n gun and accuracy isn't that much of a big deal. Some of their loads are so anemic that they won't make it to 100yds much less be stable and accurate.

As for using "petroleum" based lubes, I've experimented using Mobil1 pure synthetic as part of a lube recipe. It worked fairly well without the issues from a "dino" based petroleum. I also use Mobil1 pure synthetic grease on my guns with good results. It doesn't have problems with real black powder fouling and I can run my Sharps for an entire match with no issues.
 
I’m with @dave951 I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease in my revolver actions and Stihl HP Synthetic two stroke oil in my bullet lube which is added to a blend of SPG and Alox. Works great with zero leading and no petroleum related fouling issues and I’m beginning to experiment with this stuff as a patch lube. My bore protection is either Eezox or Froglube.
 
I would like to know what I am doing wrong? I use gun oil on all my weapons and I am not running into the problems other people are having? I do clean my rifles/pistols and muzzle loaders if I fire one shot or a dozen. I feel the problem is listening to people that really don't know but think they do or just don't know how to maintain a firearm?
 
I would like to know what I am doing wrong? I use gun oil on all my weapons and I am not running into the problems other people are having? I do clean my rifles/pistols and muzzle loaders if I fire one shot or a dozen. I feel the problem is listening to people that really don't know but think they do or just don't know how to maintain a firearm?
There’s really no one right way. As far as results are concerned, conditions among the group here are so widely disparate as to make many comparisons invalid. The rules are… more like suggestions, experiment away gentlemen!
 
I also agree with Dave951 as far as using Mobil1 grease. I've been using it for years for my BP customers and they seem to like it very much. I pack the frames with it (fouling can't get in "critical" places because grease is already there). I even pack the frames for the unmentionable SA's ( same reason) and it makes cleaning very simple for either.

The REASON I use it is BECAUSE of Cowboy shooters!! Revolvers that need to "run" and run fast can't do so when bound up with fouling.
Just as with the automobile industry, the racing community is where advancements typically come from. Same with the S.A. "racing" community . Success is success no matter where it comes from so don't be too hard on um! 🤠

Mike
 
There’s really no one right way. As far as results are concerned, conditions among the group here are so widely disparate as to make many comparisons invalid. The rules are… more like suggestions, experiment away gentlemen!
I have to agree with you. I came here to research looking new and better ways to do my job but ,as you very well stated , I come out more confused than helped? I wind up doing the same thing I alway did simply because it works?
 
I wouldn't put too much stock in what a Cowboy Action group says on this. They are the black powder part of the 3Gun world where everything is run n gun and accuracy isn't that much of a big deal. Some of their loads are so anemic that they won't make it to 100yds much less be stable and accurate.

As for using "petroleum" based lubes, I've experimented using Mobil1 pure synthetic as part of a lube recipe. It worked fairly well without the issues from a "dino" based petroleum. I also use Mobil1 pure synthetic grease on my guns with good results. It doesn't have problems with real black powder fouling and I can run my Sharps for an entire match with no issues.
The post was a discussion on the ORGANIC CHEMISTRY of lubes and fouling by a person who has researched it and is knowledgeable
And yes synthetic oils and greases are compatible with Gunpowder fouling the operative word there being SYNTHETIC.
My cap guns were shot in SASS competition and I wanted guns that would run and run as fast as i could push them and were 100% reliable.
You may tolerate misfires, hang fire, cap jams, or stuck cylinder. I will not and ran my guns to be set up prevent those things.
Take your revolver out and run it 60 times as fast as you can.
Mine will work every time.
Will yours?
Sorry but you really hit a sore spot
Respectfully
James Louis "Bunk" Stagner SASS #.859266
 
The post was a discussion on the ORGANIC CHEMISTRY of lubes and fouling by a person who has researched it and is knowledgeable
And yes synthetic oils and greases are compatible with Gunpowder fouling the operative word there being SYNTHETIC.
My cap guns were shot in SASS competition and I wanted guns that would run and run as fast as i could push them and were 100% reliable.
You may tolerate misfires, hang fire, cap jams, or stuck cylinder. I will not and ran my guns to be set up prevent those things.
Take your revolver out and run it 60 times as fast as you can.
Mine will work every time.
Will yours?
Sorry but you really hit a sore spot
Respectfully
James Louis "Bunk" Stagner SASS #.859266
We don’t “run n gun” in the N-SSA but we do balance speed AND accuracy. Can you run your revolver flat out and hit clay pigeons at 25yd? Reliability is at a premium with us as well, only our targets take more skill 😁
 
Hello Dave,
We are discussing two different activities here. but do have some things in common.
We both shoot obsolete firearms, dress in proper period clothing ,and compete against others for accuracy and time.
Other than that it is a completely different competition.
SASS requires very fast and still accurate up close. For example ten rifle, ten revolver and four shotgun requires a competitive time of under 20 seconds hitting targets in usually six different stages with different sequences.
That is what I meant by running the guns.
N-SSA requires accuracy at a distance but still against the clock or other contestants or teams.
Again both demand reliable guns and ammunition.
Both are fun, I enjoy watching videos of N-SSA events.
I enjoyed shooting SASS I can't say very competitively but I had FUN just like you.
Let's burn some Gun powder and both have fun.
respectfully
Bunk.
 
I would like to know what I am doing wrong? I use gun oil on all my weapons and I am not running into the problems other people are having? I do clean my rifles/pistols and muzzle loaders if I fire one shot or a dozen. I feel the problem is listening to people that really don't know but think they do or just don't know how to maintain a firearm?
If what you are doing works for you, than it works. This area is still as much art as science... and hopefully that will never change. It's the difference of opinion that makes a horse race after all.
 
Guys we are reinventing a very very 200+ year old wheel.
Part of the fun / frustration we are having the old timers never thought about. it was just the way to do it.
The difference is we have internet to comment, confuse, and instruct us.
sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes worthless.
For what it is worth apply Cunningham's law
Cunningham's Law states "the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer
Bunk Stagner
 
Well, it may seem silly to some but, my time is full just tuning revolvers . . . so much so that I'm thankful that I don't have to track down tallow, beeswax, olive oil and whatever else is the perfect concoction . . . mix it for summer . . . then winter . . .

As stated above, it's nice to have a reliable "racing community" to fetter out over years what works and what doesn’t.

My choice is to take advantage of the available information and use it to MY advantage. That means I can go to the nearest Auto parts store and buy a can of lube that will work with bp, handle extreme temperatures without "adjusting", and have a 6 month supply!!

With all the gripping about the time it takes for cleaning and such, it seems reasonable not to have to take time for mixing just the right ingredients for the right time of year . . . blah blah blah
Just one lube for any time of year sounds better / easier to me! Whatever floats yer boat.

Add an action shield to your SA for extra protection and you don't even have to worry about cleaning the action . . . ever!!

Of course, if you've got all that time . . . I'd rather shoot when I can . . .

Mike
 
Hello Dave,
We are discussing two different activities here. but do have some things in common.
We both shoot obsolete firearms, dress in proper period clothing ,and compete against others for accuracy and time.
Other than that it is a completely different competition.
SASS requires very fast and still accurate up close. For example ten rifle, ten revolver and four shotgun requires a competitive time of under 20 seconds hitting targets in usually six different stages with different sequences.
That is what I meant by running the guns.
N-SSA requires accuracy at a distance but still against the clock or other contestants or teams.
Again both demand reliable guns and ammunition.
Both are fun, I enjoy watching videos of N-SSA events.
I enjoyed shooting SASS I can't say very competitively but I had FUN just like you.
Let's burn some Gun powder and both have fun.
respectfully
Bunk.
I've shot in SASS matches but to me it was 3Gun with antique guns and clothing and being pretty much finished with the 3Gun thing, didn't light my fire. Neither 3Gun nor SASS require a high level of precision and the premium is mostly on speed. Both are individual type of shooting. The part I like about N-SSA the most is the team aspect. Couple that with the blend of speed and accuracy and I've found something I can really dig into. Add artillery to the mix and I don't see how SASS can appeal to me. And yes, reliability is a huge factor in our game. A fouled musket or locked up revolver is going to be detrimental to contributing to the score and if it keeps happening, your team members won't be happy with you either. Not dissing SASS, but those are the reasons I don't much care for SASS, or 3Gun anymore.

But back to the original question. I've found that the pure synthetics don't suffer from problems with fouling from real black powder. They also haven't been top of the pile in my testing for bullet lube either.
 
The governmental threshold for
SYNTHETIC
Are 15% man made lubricant, the rest is "base" mineral oil.
As far as I know when we researched this at a motorcycle company I worked for. Only Motul and Swedish had 100% synthetic, the rest were 15% except Bel-Ray which is 45%.

So your still oiling up and making sludge, besides black powder cleaning revolves around water based products, not petroleum.
 
Well actually, Synthetic, Full synthetic, and 100% synthetic are all made with petroleum products, it just depends on the amount of refining and additives blended into the base.

All that doesn't matter a whit really. We aren't concerned with "oil". I've never heard of anyone lubeing bullets with oil. Likewise, you wouldn't fill the frame with oil, it'd run out!! GREASE!!! We're talking grease!!! Small amounts of oil may cling to small areas to lubricate for a while but needs to be replaced, and especially if you use animal based products. They dry out and go rancid after a while ( not that you're going to eat it, but still . . .)!

So why would you not put the "best" lube/ protection in your beloved SA revolver? The "old timers" didn't have anything but animal products at the time. We have modern products that can out last us and make owning these type revolvers more maintenance friendly. . . not to mention last longer/ shoot longer!!

As for packing the frame with grease, those that lube only the "wear points" leave the rest of the space in the frame for fouling to migrate to, attract moisture and ruin perfectly good parts. That makes it another cleaning chore to clean the action and re-lube. But, filling the frame with grease means there's no room for fouling to build up. Fouling gets neutralized and isn't a threat to your SA. With an action shield added, it effectively "seals" the action from almost all the fouling. In an unmentionable situation, it's a "lifetime fill" proposition.

Mike
 

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