Bess & Charleville disassembly & deep cleaning

[FlinterNick]

I'm not too sure just how much sarcasm is in your reply, but let's just say that I can see the sneer from here. I did not imply that the average UK citizen has a lot, if any, of guns, just that I class myself as an average Joe. Many of the 400+ members of our local gun club have many more guns than I do, but my interests are somewhat eclectic, whereas they are collectors, some of whom have goodly numbers of variants of stuff like Mosins and Lee-Enfields - that kind of thing.

Of course you know full well that the UK has some of the most draconian gun laws on the planet, and what we can have, and do, not.

It's a reflection on your attitude to a long-time poster here [and sigforum - 9500+ posts, gunboards - 14000+ posts, northwestfirearms - 5000+ posts etc] that you seem to take great enjoyment out of rubbing my nose in all the things that you can do and have, and I can not.

Well, Sir, all I can say is 'whoopeedoo for you'.

Have a great day.

Me, I'm, off shooting a couple of BP rifles and revolvers.

tac - 33-year Army veteran - no reserve.

Dunno about that. I'm the average UK citizen, and I have seventeen rifles/carbine and two handguns - six of which are BP, although not necessarily muzzle-loading. I do not have a single smoothbore firearm among them. But that might well change, since I'm getting a slow and insistent yearning for a musket of some kind to while away my autumn years.

I've only got muzzle loaders so you've all got me outnumbered, lol.

 

[PluggedNickel]

No sir, I was not intending to rub in what I can have, have, or can do in your face. I honestly didn’t know, due to ignorance on my part, that an average citizen was permited to have so many guns in the UK.
I apologize if I have offended you. It was not my intent. I was just saying I don’t consider myself to be the average gun owner here. I misunderstood your reply completely.
Upon rereading my post, I can see why you took offense now.
I was sincere in my question about high cap mags. I was wondering if what I thought I knew about UK’s gun laws was all wrong.
Not to worry though, US is not far behind the UK when it comes to gun ownership.
The socialist, and communists get back in a majority, it’s just a matter of time.
I seem to have a talent for pissing people off on these forums. I too am on the other gun forums, Sigforum, Curios and Relics, SASS, and others.
Perhaps, I will go back to lurking. I can’t upset anyone doing that.
Anyway, have a great day. Don’t give my foolish ramblings a second thought.
Respectfully yours. Just an old fool.

 

[cositrike]

No sir, I was not intending to rub in what I can have, have, or can do in your face. I honestly didn’t know, due to ignorance on my part, that an average citizen was permited to have so many guns in the UK.
I apologize if I have offended you. It was not my intent. I was just saying I don’t consider myself to be the average gun owner here. I misunderstood your reply completely.
Upon rereading my post, I can see why you took offense now.
Not to worry though, US is not far behind the UK when it comes to gun ownership.
I seem to have a talent for pissing people off on these forums. I too have been on the other gun forums, Sigforum, Curios and Relics, SASS, and others.
Perhaps, I will go back to lurking. I can’t upset anyone doing that.
Anyway, have a great day. Don’t give my foolish ramblings a second thought.

Plugged Nickel. Don’t worry about it. I read your post and found no particular offence. I’m sure if Mr Foley reads it again, he will realise you weren’t being sarcastic. As they say, we can all go off half cocked sometimes. Good health and good shooting

 

[PluggedNickel]

Plugged Nickel. Don’t worry about it. I read your post and found no particular offence. I’m sure if Mr Foley reads it again, he will realise you weren’t being sarcastic. As they say, we can all go off half cocked sometimes. Good health and good shooting

Thanks. I could use some coaching from Cowboy I guess! But, you know, even he gets angry replies some times. Most of the time, it is a misunderstanding, on one or both parties parts.
Being your from the UK, I really appreciate the response. Not saying I couldn’t have expressed myself better though. I really didn’t intend to upset the other member. I’m sure he is a good guy, I’ve read his posts, and respect his opinions.

 

[PluggedNickel]

I've only got muzzle loaders so you've all got me outnumbered, lol.

That may be my future as well some day. It is my new passion!

 

[TFoley]

No sir, I was not intending to rub in what I can have, have, or can do in your face. I honestly didn’t know, due to ignorance on my part, that an average citizen was permited to have so many guns in the UK.
I apologize if I have offended you. It was not my intent. I was just saying I don’t consider myself to be the average gun owner here. I misunderstood your reply completely.
Upon rereading my post, I can see why you took offense now.
I was sincere in my question about high cap mags. I was wondering if what I thought I knew about UK’s gun laws was all wrong.
Not to worry though, US is not far behind the UK when it comes to gun ownership.
The socialist, and communists get back in a majority, it’s just a matter of time.
I seem to have a talent for pissing people off on these forums. I too am on the other gun forums, Sigforum, Curios and Relics, SASS, and others.
Perhaps, I will go back to lurking. I can’t upset anyone doing that.
Anyway, have a great day. Don’t give my foolish ramblings a second thought.
Respectfully yours. Just an old fool.

Sir, I, in turn, apologise for overreacting to what you say was well-intentioned comment, rather than outright sarcasm. Sadly, putting the UK and its shooters down is something that I've had to contend with since I joined the internet, and around half my posts on fora throughout North America seem to be explaining what we can and cannot do, and putting people out of their incomprehension. It's a hard row to hoe, when talking to people for whom gun ownership is written into the actual living Constitutional founding document, and trying to remind them that no other civilised nation of the planet has the RKBA, or anything like it.

And as an aside, if they made a five-hundred-round capacity magazine for any of the firearms that we are permitted to have, then we could have it. As many as we want. Shotguns? As many as we can afford. Same for smoothbore muzzleloaders - as many as you want. Rifled arms? Ah, that's another matter...

 

[PluggedNickel]

Sir, I, in turn, apologise for overreacting to what you say was well-intentioned comment, rather than outright sarcasm. Sadly, putting the UK and its shooters down is something that I've had to contend with since I joined the internet, and around half my posts on fora throughout North America seem to be explaining what we can and cannot do, and putting people out of their incomprehension. It's a hard row to hoe, when talking to people for whom gun ownership is written into the actual living Constitutional founding document, and trying to remind them that no other civilised nation of the planet has the RKBA, or anything like it.

And as an aside, if they made a five-hundred-round capacity magazine for any of the firearms that we are permitted to have, then we could have it. As many as we want. Shotguns? As many as we can afford. Same for smoothbore muzzleloaders - as many as you want. Rifled arms? Ah, that's another matter...

No worries. I didn't give any thought about how often you must have to try and educate ignorant people like myself, here in the US about UK gun laws. You are correct we take our RKBA for granted to some degree. I'm sure it gets old, going through the same drill over and over again. I obviously had a lot of misconceptions about what you could own. Thanks for taking the time to educate me. I do follow you Brits a lot on this form. You included. Partly because you have a different perspective than us sometimes, and because many seem to shoot their BP guns more often than many of us. Yourself, and Britsmoothy included. There is a BP web site in the UK I have visited. I did read about requirements for keeping, purchasing black powder, and some of the other rules for shooting in the club.
Thanks for putting up with my ignorance, and for cutting me some slack, on a post that could have been more mindful of where you are coming from. I suspect I'm not the first Yank, that was very surprised to learn a lot of what I knew about UK gun ownership was all wrong! I must have confused the UK with NYC, MD, Washington D.C., NJ, CA, CO, most of New England, or any of the other communist states here in the so called United States. MD and DC are two of the worst for draconian gun laws here. And, sadly, that cancer is growing.
Also, thank you for your service in the military. We are allies after all. Been on NATO maneuvers many times with you Brits. Perhaps I'll tell you about the time I went onboard a British destroyer, and ended up shotgunning beer with some of the crew. You got us beat there. We have to smuggle our booze aboard ship. It's a funny tale, what I can remember of it.

 

[TFoley]

I'm as British as anybody whose only connection was having a grandmother who was half-English could be.

 

[PluggedNickel]

My ancestry is mostly German, on both sides. They all came over before AWI in the early to mid 18th century. But, my mother's side had a wee bit of Irish somewhere. She would tell me as a boy, I had just enough Irish, to give me a quick temper, and more than enough German, so that once angry, I would brood about it and stay angry. Nice huh? She also, would tell me I was just like her only brother John. He was a SeaBee in the Pacific WWII. I went in the Navy in 1970 at age 17. Cuss like a sailor too. So I guess she was right about some of that. John had a pretty bad temper too. Damn Germans!

 

[Juice Jaws]

Thanks. I could use some coaching from Cowboy I guess! But, you know, even he gets angry replies some times. Most of the time, it is a misunderstanding, on one or both parties parts.
Being your from the UK, I really appreciate the response. Not saying I couldn’t have expressed myself better though. I really didn’t intend to upset the other member. I’m sure he is a good guy, I’ve read his posts, and respect his opinions.

Hey Plugged, keep doing what you are doing, it makes guys like me look good.

 

[FlinterNick]

Plugged Nickel. Don’t worry about it. I read your post and found no particular offence. I’m sure if Mr Foley reads it again, he will realise you weren’t being sarcastic. As they say, we can all go off half cocked sometimes. Good health and good shooting

For some reason whenever I'm away in Canada or the Caribbean I offend someone from the UK with my sarcasm. Its good thing its not 1776 I'd be drawn and quartered !

 

[TFoley]

I'm as British as anybody whose only connection was having a grandmother who was half-English could be.

My dad's family came over from Southern Norway sometime around 900AD and settled, after a bit of sharp and pointy squabbling, in what is now called County Cork. Hence the family name - Foley - Old Irish - ÚI FOGHLÁDA [raider/plunderer]. Between that time and the Huguenot displacement from France in the late 1600's, all kinds of bad stuff happened to my mom's family, of which Canada was the best bit, and here I am, stuck at the end.

 

[PluggedNickel]

Update on progress.
Slow going. Lock plate, frizzen and pan are all rock hard, so honing, stoning is some work. Tempting to use Dremel tool, but there is only thousandths of an inch or less to remove on pan to frozen fit. It is improving with judicial removal of metal in just the right place. Pan-frizzen gap is .004” at front behind hinge pin, touching at rear in front of cock. Down from .007” out of box.
Fixed frizzen gouging top of spring due to poor casting seam on cam on bottom of frizzen, recontoured, and polished cam, redressed spring top and polished. Frizzen 4 Lbs. to open now. I also stoned all friction surfaces on the pan, and frizzen pivot bosses.
Stoned internal parts, removing burrs, casting seams, uneven areas. Not finished, satisfied with this work yet. Main spring burrs stoned off. Rests flat against lock plate now, without gouging plate, and a gap.
It is good that the lock plate is so hard, damage from extremely rough tumbler boss would have been worse, some of those points were like, similar to welding slag! I was surprised the tech would use it in assembly without dressing up, at least grinding lightly. Also the cock screw was loose, barely hand tight, so that helped prevent worse damage, gouging.
Most internal parts appear to be mim. I could be wrong about that, but that is what they look like to me. I have my own opinions on them, although they are used almost universally in production guns these days to keep prices competitive.
I do not want to anneal the plate to soften, so as to bring it to a high polish, and then have to regarden it before reassembly. So I am just removing burrs and gouges, and polishing contact points.
I am taking my time. No hurries, no worries, no pressure.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I do not want to anneal the plate to soften, so as to bring it to a high polish, and then have to reharden it before reassembly.

No, you wouldn't want to risk warping it for an unnecessary step. It's tricky, would likely only harden the surface, and that is why American gunsmiths in the 18th century skipped it for the most part.

 

[bigted]

Same here. I clean my lock innards the same way the original mountain men did. I squirt them with carburetor/brake cleaner.

Now that made me grin!

 

[PluggedNickel]

No, you wouldn't want to risk warping it for an unnecessary step. It's tricky, would likely only harden the surface, and that is why American gunsmiths in the 18th century skipped it for the most part.

Yep, that worried me. Not worth the trouble or risk. This piece is built like a tank, and with the parts so hard, it will be around and shootable, centuries after I'm long gone! Great steel, good forge work, great dense hard wood. Better than the originals by a long shot!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Sooo. . . put it back together and quit worrying about it and shoot some. ;-)

I take the burrs off with a ceramic stone and leave it at that.

 

[FlinterNick]

No, you wouldn't want to risk warping it for an unnecessary step. It's tricky, would likely only harden the surface, and that is why American gunsmiths in the 18th century skipped it for the most part.

I agree, annealing a finished lock is risky. I would only do it to smaller parts, such as a pan or bridle. A lock plate could bend or you could have hard and soft spots.

better to work down the pan groove / slot with a casted part from The Rifle shoppe or even Dixie Gun Works has 1763/66 pans that you can retro fit to a Pedersoli repro.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Sooo. . . put it back together and quit worrying about it and shoot some. ;-)

I take the burrs off with a ceramic stone and leave it at that.

I agree, if those parts are that hard they aren't causing any friction and all that polishing is a waste of time. You need to go build a gun or something to burn up all your enthusiasm.
I don't recall ever seeing 3 pages on a Pedersoli Charleville!

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Pluggednickle,
Good on you for working over your gun and working on the lock. A well functioning lock is a safety feature. I urge you to review my thread on reworking a Pedersoli Brown Bess because in the series I describe tuning the Bess lock and how to improve the geometry. Certainly, your French lock is different but the principles still apply. I also urge you to paint the barrel channel with a varnish thin coating of AcraGlas. The coating will seal the barrel channel and add considerably to the strength of the forestock. Just make sure you scrape a little space (very little needed) in the channel for the coating. It looks like you have a nice musket and well worth any efforts you make to keep in tip-top shape.

dave

I use arca glass on all my guns creates a tight fit for the barrel bands and lugs.