Belgian Brown Bess repair

[Aldarith]

Hail friends,

An inexpensive brown bess has come up for sale, the only issue is that it needs some lock parts.

Being Belgian in origin, I have no idea whether Track of the Wolf's parts will fit, and I am new to the hobby.

Seeking opinions and suggestions regarding the attached photos.

What do you suggest I do to get this into working order?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Print Track of the Wolf's picture of their Brown Bess locks. The picture will print full size so you can compare their parts to your lock.

 

[rickystl]

You might try contacting Paul Ackermann and see if he has replacement parts.

https://ackermannarms.com/

 

[Artificer]

Hail friends,

An inexpensive brown bess has come up for sale, the only issue is that it needs some lock parts.

Being Belgian in origin, I have no idea whether Track of the Wolf's parts will fit, and I am new to the hobby.

Seeking opinions and suggestions regarding the attached photos.

What do you suggest I do to get this into working order?

Hi Aldarith,

WELCOME to the Forum!

What is the overall length of the lock plate?

What is the distance from the center of the frizzen screw hole to the rear of the pan?

What is the distance from the center of the hole in the tumbler for the cock/hammer screw to the flat area on the cock/hammer on which the bottom of the flint rests? How wide is that area where the bottom of the flint should rest.

How wide is the opening between the lock plate and the pan bridle for the leg of the frizzen?

The reasons I ask these dimensions is because I think that lock is a loose copy of an India Pattern Lock and not something most parts dealers would have in stock here in the U.S.

However, castings for the Top Jaw and Frizzen can most likely be procured from one of these sources, if not;

Great Britain and Ireland Page 1 (blackleyandson.com)

Or:

Frizzen (ML16) (peterdyson.co.uk)

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The reasons I ask these dimensions is because I think that lock is a loose copy of an India Pattern Lock and not something most parts dealers would have in stock here in the U.S.

Actually, because of the lack of markings on the lock plate, I don't think that's a Bess at all. It's Bess-ish, and for a good reason I think.

Belgium sold a boat-load of smoothbore, flint, trade guns in Africa. The Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi were their territories. The Africans there really liked the Brown Bess. (It was a similar situation to Indians in North America wanting Winchesters.) So..., if you want to sell trade guns to the local population, but..., you can't really get a true version since this kept going well into the 20th century, THEN you make a gun that looks enough like the true version that the locals don't mind it. Hence, the Belgian African Trade Guns look a lot like a flintlock Bess, but aren't really a Bess.

IF it was a Bess made in Belgium for probable sale to the British, or a British colony, it would likely be much more like a 3rd model than it is.

LD

 

[Artificer]

BTW, years ago I had to replace the Top Jaw on a Miroku Bess. Parts were long since used up and NONE of the standard Top Jaws or castings for a P1756 lock would work. Finally I ran across a casting for a P1730 Top Jaw that was so large, it allowed me to do major reshaping to fit.

Oh, not sure if you know this, but the hole in the Top Jaw is NOT perpendicular to the bottom. You have to drill it at an angle leaning towards the front of the musket or the front of the Top Jaw won't tighten down properly. Thankfully I figured that out before I drilled the hole in the casting I mentioned above.

Gus

 

[Aldarith]

Hey folks, thanks for all the input so far.
I actually do not have this in-hand yet and am asking ahead of the acquisition so as to ascertain whether or not it's worth acquiring at all.
I'm not really sure it's old enough to be a trade type gun, I think it's a post 1950s repro.

The seller has three other muskets of the same type for sale, I'll include the images here to help ascertain origin and date - two of these ones have marked locks, one of which he has photographed in detail.
The thing is that the one that needs parts costs less than half the others, hence my interest as even with the cost of parts it seems it will cost half of what a new reproduction might.

 

[Artificer]

Well..........I'm not sure whether the Belgium Bess was made as a firing replica or as a decorator piece only. I can guarantee you the parts for that gun will need major fitting, drilling and the frizzen will need proper hardening and tempering. The parts available will be castings and will NOT be drop in parts. So unless you have machinist or gunsmithing skills, I would strongly suggest you not buy that gun.

The Grice lock MAY be a Pedersoli lock, BUT I'm not sure how old it is. They had two different kinds of mainsprings since they began making them and the more modern/available ones won't fit the older locks. I would ask the seller what markings there are on top of the barrels of the other two guns - that are not the Belgium Bess.

Gus

 

[Aldarith]

Well..........I'm not sure whether the Belgium Bess was made as a firing replica or as a decorator piece only. I can guarantee you the parts for that gun will need major fitting, drilling and the frizzen will need proper hardening and tempering. The parts available will be castings and will NOT be drop in parts. So unless you have machinist or gunsmithing skills, I would strongly suggest you not buy that gun.

The Grice lock MAY be a Pedersoli lock, BUT I'm not sure how old it is. They had two different kinds of mainsprings since they began making them and the more modern/available ones won't fit the older locks. I would ask the seller what markings there are on top of the barrels of the other two guns - that are not the Belgium Bess.

Gus

They are all Belgian made but with different locks. I'll ask the fellow if he has actually shot any, he says there are Belgian Liege marks on the barrel.

How much filing and drilling are we talking? I have hand files, a drill and a dremel.

 

[Artificer]

They are all Belgian made but with different locks. I'll ask the fellow if he has actually shot any, he says there are Belgian Liege marks on the barrel.

How much filing and drilling are we talking? I have hand files, a drill and a dremel.

How much filing? No one can tell you that before you have the casting in hand to see how much you have to thin the area that goes between the pan bridle and lock, how much you have to file the bottom of the frizzen to match the top of the pan and then how much you may have to modify the body of the frizzen so it looks right over the pan.

As to drilling, if you don't have access to some kind of Drill Press, it makes drilling the holes MUCH harder to locate and drill accurately.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They are all Belgian made but with different locks. I'll ask the fellow if he has actually shot any, he says there are Belgian Liege marks on the barrel.

How much filing and drilling are we talking? I have hand files, a drill and a dremel.

Well if there are Belgian marks on the barrels, then they are Frankenbess, assembled from a mish mash of parts, as those are very much Italian locks made by Pedersoli. The one lock has been "jeweled", those polished circles on the inside of the lock plate.

I'm not really sure it's old enough to be a trade type gun, I think it's a post 1950s repro.

Well the Belgians were selling the flintlocks in the Congo and Ruanda into the 1960's...so....

LD

 

[Aldarith]

Ahh, This is starting to look less & less attractive as a prospective first purchase.

Sad, as this is the first gun in my price range to crop up in a long while.

Maybe it's better practice to just hustle away some extra cash and get a viable reproduction.

 

[Artificer]

Ahh, This is starting to look less & less attractive as a prospective first purchase.

Sad, as this is the first gun in my price range to crop up in a long while.

Maybe it's better practice to just hustle away some extra cash and get a viable reproduction.

If you plan on shooting the musket, particularly with a full size ball, I would recommend at a minimum someone who knows what they are doing would inspect the muskets, before you buy.

Gus

 

[toot]

good luck, it is a STOGERS GUN FRON THE 1960'S made up for the AFRICAN TRADE. I have several of them and got some generic parts from S&S parts in NY. and had a gun smith fit them to the gun. I beleave that the parts that I got were for A mod 1816, musket? I have several of these guns. I shoot them periodically.

 

[JCKelly]

Basically you gotta make a lock largely from scratch. Makes me tired just to look at that lock.
Tired old me, I'd just buy a Pedersoli, kit or finished gun, and let a some other person have a l-o-n-g headache.

Just an old guy's view.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Well..........I'm not sure whether the Belgium Bess was made as a firing replica or as a decorator piece only. I can guarantee you the parts for that gun will need major fitting, drilling and the frizzen will need proper hardening and tempering. The parts available will be castings and will NOT be drop in parts. So unless you have machinist or gunsmithing skills, I would strongly suggest you not buy that gun.

The Grice lock MAY be a Pedersoli lock, BUT I'm not sure how old it is. They had two different kinds of mainsprings since they began making them and the more modern/available ones won't fit the older locks. I would ask the seller what markings there are on top of the barrels of the other two guns - that are not the Belgium Bess.

Gus

I've never seen a Pedersoli lock that had the lock nail going from the lock side to the side plate.

 

[Artificer]

I've never seen a Pedersoli lock that had the lock nail going from the lock side to the side plate.

I think that is a modern wood screw someone decided to use after they lost the front side nail.

Gus

 

[oreclan]

Hey folks, thanks for all the input so far.
I actually do not have this in-hand yet and am asking ahead of the acquisition so as to ascertain whether or not it's worth acquiring at all.
I'm not really sure it's old enough to be a trade type gun, I think it's a post 1950s repro.

The seller has three other muskets of the same type for sale, I'll include the images here to help ascertain origin and date - two of these ones have marked locks, one of which he has photographed in detail.
The thing is that the one that needs parts costs less than half the others, hence my interest as even with the cost of parts it seems it will cost half of what a new reproduction might.
View attachment 88505
View attachment 88506View attachment 88502View attachment 88503View attachment 88504

The profile of the triggerguard does not look correct for a Bess. Do you have a photo of the bottom?

 

[4575wcf]

If the musket was within my price range I would buy it. Any work it needs can be done by hand with hand tools, the old timers did it every day of their lives and thought nothing of it. The trick to any hand machining operation is to think it out before hand and fixture the job in such a way that the cut has no choice but to go where you want it to go. William Brockway's "Recreating the Muzzle Loading Double Barrel Shotgun" is the best source I know of for getting black powder gunsmithing done with hardware store type tools, and by reasoning it out. Every bit of his advice is aimed at working guns, not wall hangers. He will tell you exactly how to build that mainspring by the way. That looks to me like the Grice lock that Dixie Gun Works used to sell for the Bess in the early '70's. Dixie offered quite a lot of Belgian products then. I bought my first Dixie Catalog in '73 with my allowance money, and I hold Turner Kirkland personally responsible for turning me into the hopeless black powder junky case that I am today. : ).

 

[4575wcf]

In this same smoothbore forum in a post dating from 2020 on page 20 "Belgian Flintlock Repro" is a thread containing two more pages of information on Belgian imported muskets. Post #4 contains a picture of your hammer, I am pretty sure, but on a different lock. Perhaps one of those fellows might know a source of parts.