I am building a Bedford riffle and would like Bedford pouch to go with it. I have been trying to find pictures of Bedford pouches but my search has come up empty. Can anyone direct me to a site with pictures of these type pouches?
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Bedford pouch
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Is your rifle flintlock or percussion and from what time period? An 18th century pouch would have most likely been different than for a percussion rifle of a the late period of Bedford rifles.
I don't know if T.C. Albert lists a "Bedford Style" pouch in his book, "Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch." Maybe others who have the book can chime in on that. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/50/4/BOOK-R18-CHP
I did find what is claimed to be an original Bedford Pouch in the below link. HOWEVER, I am not knowledgeable on this subject to say whether it is correctly listed or not. http://www.icollector.com/GROUPING...NG-POUCH-AND-HORNS-WITH-ACCESSORIES_i17332453
Gus
I don't know if T.C. Albert lists a "Bedford Style" pouch in his book, "Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch." Maybe others who have the book can chime in on that. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/50/4/BOOK-R18-CHP
I did find what is claimed to be an original Bedford Pouch in the below link. HOWEVER, I am not knowledgeable on this subject to say whether it is correctly listed or not. http://www.icollector.com/GROUPING...NG-POUCH-AND-HORNS-WITH-ACCESSORIES_i17332453
Gus
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T.C. has posted here before. Might find him in the member list and PM, or better, e-mail him.
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Hopefully T.C. or others, who may know how/if a Bedford County Shot Pouch can be identified (and from what time period), will chime in.
I just don't know if a Shot Pouch can be identified to a particular county or area like what we now call Schools of Rifles by Pennsylvania Counties.
I have always gone with pouch body shapes that are correct for a time period and then a flap shape that I like or what the person wanted for who I was making the pouch.
Gus
I just don't know if a Shot Pouch can be identified to a particular county or area like what we now call Schools of Rifles by Pennsylvania Counties.
I have always gone with pouch body shapes that are correct for a time period and then a flap shape that I like or what the person wanted for who I was making the pouch.
Gus
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No Deer,
There can be a very wide range of what folks mean by a pouch that "goes with" a certain rifle and of a certain time period. This is why I asked what time period you are emulating. Please understand I am not trying to be critical, but we really need more information from you to give you the best answer to your question.
For example, the Bedford County pouch Elnathan mentioned in Madison Grant's book is dated 1850 and that would be way too late for an early Bedford flintlock rifle, unless it was an old rifle in the 1850's by then.
Since I am by no means a student of Bedford Rifles, I looked it up and it seems the earliest flintlock rifles made in the County was from about 1776. So if your rifle is a reproduction from the AWI period and you want a pouch that would have been made or used in Bedford Country when the rifle was new or fairly new, then that pouch would not be correct. This is part of the reason I asked earlier about the time period you want the pouch to "match" or "go with" the rifle.
To me as a reenactor/living history enthusiast - "matching" a pouch to a rifle involves many things. First of course is the actual time period when the rifle was new and if one is trying to match the pouch to the rifle in that period.
Then next thing is the age and economic status of the rifle owner and even their trade at the time they bought the rifle. For example a young man in his late teens/early twenties during the AWI period almost certainly would not have been able to afford and have a fancy Saddler or Cordwainer made pouch, unless he came from a rich family OR he was a Journeyman period leather worker. It would have been much more likely he would have used an older pouch or one he made himself. If he made it himself and he was not a trained leather worker, then the pouch more than likely was a very simple design and perhaps at least somewhat crude in design and sewing. No doubt this young man would have seen other pouches made or used by others and that probably would have influenced how he designed his pouch.
Where the pouch owner came from would also have influenced the design of his pouch. Many of the first settlers in Bedford came from Cumberland County, though a fair number of early settlers in Bedford came from Maryland. So in the earliest period of rifle making in Bedford, the design of the pouch would have been influenced more by what was made in other counties or even another Colony. If the rifle was purchased new by a man in his 30's or 40's in the AWI, then he may/probably used a pouch he already had and made somewhere outside Bedford County. http://genealogytrails.com/penn/bedford/history/1843history.html
So to be the most clear, here is the info we need from you to give you the best info to your question.
1. What time period are you emulating? For example AWI period, immediate Post AWI Period, 1790-1800, 1800-War of 1812, Post War of 1812 to 1830, 1830 and later, etc?
2. What is your age and are you emulating a man your age or from perhaps a younger age than you are now, when the rifle was purchased?
3. What was/is your economic status and trade when you made/bought the rifle?
4. Where did you come from when you moved to Bedford County?
The more info you can give us will result in the best information for your question.
Gus
There can be a very wide range of what folks mean by a pouch that "goes with" a certain rifle and of a certain time period. This is why I asked what time period you are emulating. Please understand I am not trying to be critical, but we really need more information from you to give you the best answer to your question.
For example, the Bedford County pouch Elnathan mentioned in Madison Grant's book is dated 1850 and that would be way too late for an early Bedford flintlock rifle, unless it was an old rifle in the 1850's by then.
Since I am by no means a student of Bedford Rifles, I looked it up and it seems the earliest flintlock rifles made in the County was from about 1776. So if your rifle is a reproduction from the AWI period and you want a pouch that would have been made or used in Bedford Country when the rifle was new or fairly new, then that pouch would not be correct. This is part of the reason I asked earlier about the time period you want the pouch to "match" or "go with" the rifle.
To me as a reenactor/living history enthusiast - "matching" a pouch to a rifle involves many things. First of course is the actual time period when the rifle was new and if one is trying to match the pouch to the rifle in that period.
Then next thing is the age and economic status of the rifle owner and even their trade at the time they bought the rifle. For example a young man in his late teens/early twenties during the AWI period almost certainly would not have been able to afford and have a fancy Saddler or Cordwainer made pouch, unless he came from a rich family OR he was a Journeyman period leather worker. It would have been much more likely he would have used an older pouch or one he made himself. If he made it himself and he was not a trained leather worker, then the pouch more than likely was a very simple design and perhaps at least somewhat crude in design and sewing. No doubt this young man would have seen other pouches made or used by others and that probably would have influenced how he designed his pouch.
Where the pouch owner came from would also have influenced the design of his pouch. Many of the first settlers in Bedford came from Cumberland County, though a fair number of early settlers in Bedford came from Maryland. So in the earliest period of rifle making in Bedford, the design of the pouch would have been influenced more by what was made in other counties or even another Colony. If the rifle was purchased new by a man in his 30's or 40's in the AWI, then he may/probably used a pouch he already had and made somewhere outside Bedford County. http://genealogytrails.com/penn/bedford/history/1843history.html
So to be the most clear, here is the info we need from you to give you the best info to your question.
1. What time period are you emulating? For example AWI period, immediate Post AWI Period, 1790-1800, 1800-War of 1812, Post War of 1812 to 1830, 1830 and later, etc?
2. What is your age and are you emulating a man your age or from perhaps a younger age than you are now, when the rifle was purchased?
3. What was/is your economic status and trade when you made/bought the rifle?
4. Where did you come from when you moved to Bedford County?
The more info you can give us will result in the best information for your question.
Gus
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Elnathan said:
That's my favorite source for recreating pouches from one era or another, but the print job on the book has its limits. Specifically the photos are rendered dark enough that they obscure a lot of important detail.
Not really an issue if you have a desktop scanner or can shoot closeups with your camera. Take your shot, run the image into a photo processing program and play with the brightness and contrast settings. You'll discover important details that are completely lost in the book.
That collection sold stuff is interesting. You were wise to qualify your comments as not know fer certain, fer sure it is all correct for the period and truly antique. I see mention of a screw tip horn, Kentucky Rifle and.....hold yer breath...a patch knife. :shocked2:
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Rifleman1776 said:
Though I've never seen documented reference to a patch knife from the era, I'll add one common-sense and practical insight on having a small knife in your bag. Whatever you call it.
I've lost belt knives from their sheaths more than once in our brushy tangles. In fact I'm pretty much through carrying them for that reason. Evil and sneaky are the ways of brush in tangling and removing anything it can get hold of.
In fact when I got serious about muzzleloading whenever that was, it didn't take me long to start carrying a small sheath knife inside my bag in addition to a bigger one on my belt.
These days I've dispensed with the belt knife entirely and rely on what I call a "bag knife." No historical sense for that, but it's my rig and my brush. For "backup" I have a dandy razor sharp modern pocket knife in my pants pocket.
Call it what you want, but in the real world then and now there's some solid sense in having a "backup" knife. Small makes it easier to carry, wherever you stow it.
Rifleman1776 said:
I don't think that there is any doubt that folks carried knives on their bags from time to time, particularly in the 19th century. Whether or not they were dedicated to cutting patches or just general utility knives is another question.
IIRC, there aren't any surviving Bedford rifles from the flintlock period, either. The flintlock variant seen today is wholly supposition. It is very unlikely that anyone is going to produce a bonified Bedford pouch from that period is the rifles themselves aren't around, so 1850 is probably as close as he is going to get.
While looking thru the book, "The BEDFORD COUNTY RIFLE and Its Makers" by Calvin Hetrick. © 1973 and 1975 by George Shumway I noticed there is one Bedford flintlock rifle shown on page 4.
It is a .44 caliber smoothbore made by Peter White with a 44 1/2" long barrel. The overall length of the gun is 60 1/2" and it weighs 10 pounds.
With the exception of one mule ear, all of the rest of the Bedfords shown in the book are the typical, slender percussion locks typical of the Bedford area.
Also shown in the book on page 34 is a "Bedford County Hunting Bag".
It is rather rectangular in shape with a pointed flap. The end of the flap hangs lower than the bottom of the bag.
It has fringed edges on both sides and the bottom of the bag with the fringes cut maybe 1/8" wide and about 1/2 to 3/4" long.
A fairly narrow, long, powder horn is tied to the shoulder strap just above the flap and several tube like powder measures(?) are tied to the other side of the strap.
It's difficult to know if it is the lighting or not but the bag appears to be covered with short hair.
Hopefully, this picture of page 34 will be useful.
It is a .44 caliber smoothbore made by Peter White with a 44 1/2" long barrel. The overall length of the gun is 60 1/2" and it weighs 10 pounds.
With the exception of one mule ear, all of the rest of the Bedfords shown in the book are the typical, slender percussion locks typical of the Bedford area.
Also shown in the book on page 34 is a "Bedford County Hunting Bag".
It is rather rectangular in shape with a pointed flap. The end of the flap hangs lower than the bottom of the bag.
It has fringed edges on both sides and the bottom of the bag with the fringes cut maybe 1/8" wide and about 1/2 to 3/4" long.
A fairly narrow, long, powder horn is tied to the shoulder strap just above the flap and several tube like powder measures(?) are tied to the other side of the strap.
It's difficult to know if it is the lighting or not but the bag appears to be covered with short hair.
Hopefully, this picture of page 34 will be useful.
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Zonie,
Thanks a bunch for posting that picture of a very interesting pouch.
It is not the simplest pouch design. One of the simplest methods would be a pouch made of one piece of leather in an "L" shape with the short leg of the "L" folded back onto the bottom of the long leg of the "L" and sewed to the bottom and one side of the pouch. The second simplest design would be one long piece of leather with the bottom folded up and sewn into the pouch with sewing on each side and the end of the leather folded over as the flap.
This pouch shows at least some experience making leather goods, though I doubt it was made by a Saddler or Cordwainer, but it may have been. (The quality of the stitching would tell us more, but we can't see it.) The fact the pouch was made in two pieces and a piece of leather as a gusset was sewn between the pieces along the sides and bottom (and later fringed) demonstrates at least some leather working skill. The strap and horn straps seem a bit crude, but they may have been replacements. If they weren't replacements, then I think it is safe to say it was very likely a home made pouch.
It appears whoever cut the flap, tried to do so in a symmetrically pointed shape, but as the pouch has aged, it has worn to no longer being symmetrical, which is to be expected.
Using a piece of leather tanned with the "hair on" the leather, could mean it was home tanned, but leaving the hair on was also a method employed in other leather goods (like British Soldier's packs) as a way to repel water.
The size of the powder horn and the number of "danglies" hanging down, makes me think this pouch was last used during the percussion era, though this general style of pouch could go back further than that.
VERY interesting piece!
Gus
Thanks a bunch for posting that picture of a very interesting pouch.
It is not the simplest pouch design. One of the simplest methods would be a pouch made of one piece of leather in an "L" shape with the short leg of the "L" folded back onto the bottom of the long leg of the "L" and sewed to the bottom and one side of the pouch. The second simplest design would be one long piece of leather with the bottom folded up and sewn into the pouch with sewing on each side and the end of the leather folded over as the flap.
This pouch shows at least some experience making leather goods, though I doubt it was made by a Saddler or Cordwainer, but it may have been. (The quality of the stitching would tell us more, but we can't see it.) The fact the pouch was made in two pieces and a piece of leather as a gusset was sewn between the pieces along the sides and bottom (and later fringed) demonstrates at least some leather working skill. The strap and horn straps seem a bit crude, but they may have been replacements. If they weren't replacements, then I think it is safe to say it was very likely a home made pouch.
It appears whoever cut the flap, tried to do so in a symmetrically pointed shape, but as the pouch has aged, it has worn to no longer being symmetrical, which is to be expected.
Using a piece of leather tanned with the "hair on" the leather, could mean it was home tanned, but leaving the hair on was also a method employed in other leather goods (like British Soldier's packs) as a way to repel water.
The size of the powder horn and the number of "danglies" hanging down, makes me think this pouch was last used during the percussion era, though this general style of pouch could go back further than that.
VERY interesting piece!
Gus
It's difficult to know if it is the lighting or not but the bag appears to be covered with short hair.
Grant notes hair-on leather used on the flap and front panel as a Bedford trait.
Interesting about the flintlock. For some reason I immediately started wondering about an improper "reconversion" - don't know if that is some vague memory of a conversation or if my subconscious doesn't want to admit that I was wrong
Bedford rifles are way out of my chief areas of interest, so I know very little about them.
Grant notes hair-on leather used on the flap and front panel as a Bedford trait.
Interesting about the flintlock. For some reason I immediately started wondering about an improper "reconversion" - don't know if that is some vague memory of a conversation or if my subconscious doesn't want to admit that I was wrong
Bedford rifles are way out of my chief areas of interest, so I know very little about them.
Some say, Bedford rifles have more than a little in common with a hockey stick. :grin:
The large amount of drop in the butt does cause the muzzle to rise quite a bit when they are shot but because the comb on the stock drops off so quickly they are usually not "cheek slappers".
Also, Bedfords usually have smaller bores so the recoil isn't bad.
My rifle in the picture above is a .45.
The large amount of drop in the butt does cause the muzzle to rise quite a bit when they are shot but because the comb on the stock drops off so quickly they are usually not "cheek slappers".
Also, Bedfords usually have smaller bores so the recoil isn't bad.
My rifle in the picture above is a .45.
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OK, first I have to apologize for a mistake I made in calling the fringed leather piece a "gusset" on the original Bedford pouch Zonie showed above. Actually it is a wide "welt" of leather that was wide enough to be cut into fringes where it stuck out from the sewed edges around the pouch. (A gusset is a piece of leather that is sewn between the front and back pieces of the pouch, so as to widen the width of the pouch and make it easier to get one's hand in and out of the pouch.)
The primary purpose of a "welt" is to strengthen the stitched area between two pieces of leather. It is especially important when the leather pieces are thin and more likely to tear out than thicker pieces of leather sewn together. So if one is going to use fairly thin leather as is common to make a pouch, it is a good idea to have a welt between the sewn edges of the pouch leather pieces.
Madison Grant in the section entitled “Appalachia” of his book, shows a number of pouches with a very long flap that extends down to or beyond the bottom of the pouch in front. U.S. Topographical maps seem to confirm much of Bedford County is in “Appalachia” in PA. In the sale link I provided, it suggested this was a feature of Bedford pouches. The pouch Zonie showed has it as well. What I don’t know and have not been able to confirm is when that style of pouch flap began being used? I suspect the time period was near or after the opening of the 19th century, but I cannot document that.
The reason I mention the length of the flap and now add that most of the pouches shown with them, do not show some kind of closure like a button to keep the flap down and the contents inside the pouch. The weight and length of the flap is what keeps the pouch closed.
If you have never used a pouch with that long of a flap and no button closure, I thought I might offer some personal experience with one I had a long time ago. I did most of my BP shooting on various kinds of target ranges either something close to modern ones or in Primitive Matches in something like what is known as a “Woods Walk” Match today. That long flap really got in my way of getting things out of the pouch and especially on timed matches.
The other thing about a pouch with a long front flap and no closure is it can easily be caught by brush and brambles as you move through them while hunting. I know some folks say to keep your elbow tight over the pouch when going through brush to avoid that, but it never worked well for me. I’ve had bags caught by brush and brambles and wound up on or near the top of my shoulder and upside down, where a flap without a closure would allow contents of the pouch to spill out. Most of my BP hunting never involved crossing deep streams or creeks, but when it did, I was very glad to have a closure on my pouch flap and even when I was holding the gun and pouch above my head.
Other folks may have different experiences with long flaps that do not have a button or some kind of closure on them and may have had none of the difficulties I’ve had. But for me, I would not have that long of a front pouch flap with or without a closure on the flap.
Even if such a long pouch flap was used sometimes or often used on Bedford Pouches in the very earliest period, it does not mean you HAVE to have that long of a front pouch flap, whether with or without a closure. It is entirely possible someone like me who started with such a long front flap and no button closure, and found he didn’t like it when he used it, would later shorten the flap and add a closure. Of course you could do the same if you began with a long pouch flap and decided you didn’t like it in use.
Gus
The primary purpose of a "welt" is to strengthen the stitched area between two pieces of leather. It is especially important when the leather pieces are thin and more likely to tear out than thicker pieces of leather sewn together. So if one is going to use fairly thin leather as is common to make a pouch, it is a good idea to have a welt between the sewn edges of the pouch leather pieces.
Madison Grant in the section entitled “Appalachia” of his book, shows a number of pouches with a very long flap that extends down to or beyond the bottom of the pouch in front. U.S. Topographical maps seem to confirm much of Bedford County is in “Appalachia” in PA. In the sale link I provided, it suggested this was a feature of Bedford pouches. The pouch Zonie showed has it as well. What I don’t know and have not been able to confirm is when that style of pouch flap began being used? I suspect the time period was near or after the opening of the 19th century, but I cannot document that.
The reason I mention the length of the flap and now add that most of the pouches shown with them, do not show some kind of closure like a button to keep the flap down and the contents inside the pouch. The weight and length of the flap is what keeps the pouch closed.
If you have never used a pouch with that long of a flap and no button closure, I thought I might offer some personal experience with one I had a long time ago. I did most of my BP shooting on various kinds of target ranges either something close to modern ones or in Primitive Matches in something like what is known as a “Woods Walk” Match today. That long flap really got in my way of getting things out of the pouch and especially on timed matches.
The other thing about a pouch with a long front flap and no closure is it can easily be caught by brush and brambles as you move through them while hunting. I know some folks say to keep your elbow tight over the pouch when going through brush to avoid that, but it never worked well for me. I’ve had bags caught by brush and brambles and wound up on or near the top of my shoulder and upside down, where a flap without a closure would allow contents of the pouch to spill out. Most of my BP hunting never involved crossing deep streams or creeks, but when it did, I was very glad to have a closure on my pouch flap and even when I was holding the gun and pouch above my head.
Other folks may have different experiences with long flaps that do not have a button or some kind of closure on them and may have had none of the difficulties I’ve had. But for me, I would not have that long of a front pouch flap with or without a closure on the flap.
Even if such a long pouch flap was used sometimes or often used on Bedford Pouches in the very earliest period, it does not mean you HAVE to have that long of a front pouch flap, whether with or without a closure. It is entirely possible someone like me who started with such a long front flap and no button closure, and found he didn’t like it when he used it, would later shorten the flap and add a closure. Of course you could do the same if you began with a long pouch flap and decided you didn’t like it in use.
Gus
The pouch attributed to Jesse MacGlemary illustrated in Jim Webb's book on pouches from southern Appalachia has a long pointed flap extending below the body of the bag. Jesse married in 1789 and died prior to 1810, so assuming the attribution is correct the style should date back at least that far.
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Interesting information. Thank you.
Gus
Gus
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Artificer said:
I'm basing this on field experience and a little blood shed here and there making and using a wide range of bag styles.
With one piece back-and-flaps, you just about HAVE TO HAVE lots of length if you don't have some sort of closure on the flap. Without a button or extra length, the things are always bounding open.
However, if your flap is separate from the back and sewed with a flat seam, they stay closed very nicely without any form of closure, especially with a little extra length.
I point that out, because in pure function there can be very good reasons for a little extra flap length.
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