Barrel metal composition or type?

[mmutarelli]

Does anyone know what the common 4 digit designation is for muzzle loading barrels? I teach modern gunsmithing at my local community college here in NC. I also build flint locks in the Bear Creek School style. A student asked me what they were made of considering they can't take the pressure of smokeless powder.

Any thoughts from the forum readers?

MM

 

[Phil Coffins]

12L14 and 1137 or 1137 modified are commonly used.

 

[Zonie]

In addition, the breech plug and side drum if used is usually made out of low carbon steel like 1018 or 1020.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
There are also some barrels being made with 4140 steel.

dave

 

[mmutarelli]

Thanks everyone. I was looking at Dixie Gun Works and they had some barrels state their composition. 1137 usually was common for Green mountain and others.

MM

 

[Notchy Bob]

Danny Caywood uses and recommends 1137 and 8620. He has a lot to say about barrel steels for muzzle-loaders on this page: The Importance of Barrel Quality Steel!

I do know that many of the really old hand forged barrels were made of wrought iron, and it appears to me that there is an emerging renaissance of wrought iron barrels, although they are not necessarily hand forged. Mark Sage wrote about having a rifle built around a wrought iron barrel which was made from bar stock by Ed Rayl. This was in Muzzleloader magazine earlier this year. There was an interview with Brad Emig in Muzzleloader some time last year. Mr. Emig extolled the virtues of wrought iron barrels. I also noted an article in the current issue of Muzzle Blasts, in which the author talked about using a wrought iron barrel. I did not see where he got it, though.

I'm not advocating for or against wrought iron barrels. I know nothing of their metallurgical properties. It's just that I have noted several recent article about them, and it would not surprise me if we started seeing a few more of them from some of the custom barrel makers.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Rudyard]

I think it was William Greener (The Elder )of NewCastle who wrote in' The Gun' 1834 . He listed all the then current barrel steels or' Irons' I should say . Wiswolds iron ,Charcoal iron ,Two penny, Wednesbury Scelp, ect and ends with' Sham Damn' stating it" Was all that poachers deserved ' .Though he starts his description with the various qualitys of Damascus .How help full that might be I cant say but interesting anyway . I myself like Twist & Damascus both ours & the Kurdish ones . And have not had a problem . The better quality Turkish region rifle & gun barrels where held in high esteem and many where used by European makers out of choice .

The only perfect bore Turkish rifle I own shoots extremely well though uesualy what survives are well worn or neglected .examples . There you go what all the long numbers mean Ive no idea but I've never had any makers barrel fail proof..
Rudyard

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think it was William Greener (The Elder )of NewCastle who wrote in' The Gun' 1834 . He listed all the then current barrel steels or' Irons' I should say . Wiswolds iron ,Charcoal iron ,Two penny, Wednesbury Scelp, ect and ends with' Sham Damn' stating it" Was all that poachers deserved ' .Though he starts his description with the various qualitys of Damascus .How help full that might be I cant say but interesting anyway . I myself like Twist & Damascus both ours & the Kurdish ones . And have not had a problem . The better quality Turkish region rifle & gun barrels where held in high esteem and many where used by European makers out of choice .

The only perfect bore Turkish rifle I own shoots extremely well though uesualy what survives are well worn or neglected .examples . There you go what all the long numbers mean Ive no idea but I've never had any makers barrel fail proof..
Rudyard

Great post, Rudyard!

I've read somewhere that Spanish barrels were considered top of the line, maybe in the 17th and 18th centuries, although the finished guns from Spain were not thought to be quite up to the quality of the barrels. Is that true, or can you expand that topic any?

I know Spanish blade makers were masters of their craft. It would stand to reason that their barrels would be good.

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

 

[Feltwad]

You will find that the UK gun makers of the flintlock period imported barrels from Italy and Spain this did carry on into the early percussion most were iron and the later ones were stamped with a F by the proof house for Foreign. The better ones had a marble look others were plain iron
Feltwad

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Spanish barrels were the finest smoothbores made during the 17th and 18th centuries. Their finished guns were excellent too. Spanish barrels were made from iron mined in northern Spain and it was and still is some of the purest and best iron ore produced. They produced very high quality wrought iron skelps and Spanish gunsmiths developed methods to make superior barrels. Each barrel was made in 5 separate sections, 2 that were octagonal, and 3 that were round. Each section was spirally welded on a mandrel and inspected for quality. Then the sections were welded together and the joints closely inspected. That way the welds were inspected more closely than if the entire barrel was welded up in one piece giving the makers confidence to shape and thin the barrels to produce light but very strong barrels. They were very highly esteemed and often British sportsmen traveling in Europe would buy Spanish barrels and have their favorite British maker stock them up into fine guns. In some cases , the barrels were so light and thin that the British gunsmith was reluctant to solder or braze on barrel lugs to avoid damaging the bores by heating. So they made small barrel bands that anchored the loops for the barrel keys and were inlet into the stock. Here is an example that I did to emulate that method:

dave

 

[Notchy Bob]

Great posts regarding the Spanish barrels, guys! Thank you!

Notchy Bob

 

[Rudyard]

Wow . At first I though I had' fan mail' but both Felt Wad & Dave answered the question so well I could add little to their views Turkish Barrels and even in one case an Indonesian barrel where stocked up by English & no doubt Continental makers . and doubtless good barrels where popular souveneers of the 'Grand Tour' Wealthy gentlemen thought it incumbent of them to make. A sort of up market O E vis ' Overseas experience' today almost a rite of passage that any emaginitive
young ' Back packer' is liable to make . I was just such a youth only I didn't stop wandering &' living in a world' till marriage at Fort Ti in 1999 and bin lids put a slight crimp on that plan .However I digress ( its the senility ) The use of Cappucins / Barrel bands was in both Spanish & Turkish regions was because loops where considered almost sacreligios to add loops by the makers of each & doubtless other regions . I have a stocked up barrel by Alonzo Martinez and one later by Roxas that had added loops The Roxas bore London proofs savagely stamped deep but had no F I think the F applied more to non guild members makers .Not nessasarily overseas makers .The Martinez must be very old as he died in 1720 a pupil of the Marquarts & it has their sickle mark .I just stocked it up with a old Ketland & Co lock in an old fashioned full stocked but still popular with more conservative sportsmen style even as late as Ketland & Co . It put both 'floating bits' into context' as I view it , bore still good & I bowled a bunny just to try it and make a rabbit stew.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Notchy Bob]

Well, that explains the Spanish penchant for using barrel bands! I had wondered why they did that, and now we know!

Apologies to the OP for vectoring a little off topic. I hope his question was answered. I would like to see one of his Bear Creek style flintlocks, if he doesn't mind posting some pictures.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Jim Wag]

Some people
Still swear by
Spanish barrels

I bought the rifle
Just to get the barrel!

Jim in La Luz

 

[Rabbit2047]

Thanks everyone. I was looking at Dixie Gun Works and they had some barrels state their composition. 1137 usually was common for Green mountain and others.

MM

I might have taken your class 18 years ago. If your community college is right behind a middle school, then I could have been one of your students!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Below is a post I made on the ALR website in response to a question about the differences between wrought iron forged, twist, and Damascus barrels. While Greener's book "The Gun" is a useful reference, it was written when steel was much more abundant and does not explain 18th century processes and notions very well. I would love to have William Greener the elder's earlier work. Anyway, I wrote this to offer simple explanations for terms that are often confused by modern muzzleloading makers, collectors, and shooters.

"I understand your confusion because many of the terms are used interchangeably and sometimes incorrectly. Wrought iron forged barrels covers a wide range. Wrought iron is iron hammered into skelps (flat bars) in such a way to give it a consistent density and grain. Gary Brumfield's web site for which Curtis provided the link:

Barrel_Making

shows forging a wrought iron barrel by wrapping it lengthwise around a mandrel and hammer welding a long straight seam or "simple" welded seam. That was the cheapest and easiest way to make a barrel in the 18th century. That same wrought iron could be wrapped spirally around the mandrel and welded. That was the Spanish way and it yielded stronger and lighter barrels. There were different ways to make wrought iron skelps and one of the best and strongest was to make them from iron "stubs". Stubs were used horseshoe nails picked up off the roads and sold to ironmongers. Nails were always made from good quality iron and the pounding of horses hooves on roads hammered the nails giving them even more ductility. The old nails were arranged vertically in a hoop of iron with the heads sticking out top and bottom, and the whole thing heated in the forge and hammered into a bar. These were then made into "stub" barrels, which might also contain simple wrought iron skelps and sometimes a little steel. It is important to remember that until the mid-19th century, steel was expensive to make in quantity so it was used sparingly and often was as expensive as silver. Stub barrels could be welded in one long seam or in a spiral like I described previously. Often the simple welded stub barrels were called "watered" iron barrels and when browned have the characteristic beautiful marbling pattern found on many high end British guns during the 18th century. Most of Wogdon's famous dueling and officer's pistols had watered iron barrels. When welded in a spiral, the marbling twists around the barrel yielding a different look. Next we have "twist" barrels. These are made by hammering out narrow rods of iron, anchoring one end and then using a turning device to twist the rod tightly. Then these thin twisted rods are braided with other twisted rods and hammered into a skelp. Those skelps could then be welded into a barrel either with a simple long seam or in a spiral fashion, the spiral welding being the strongest and most expensive. These barrels tend to show a tight twisting "tiger stripes" kind of pattern when browned. They could be made from plain wrought iron and called "twist" barrels or they were made from stub iron and called "stub twist" barrels So far, I've been describing barrels made mostly from iron. Damascus barrels introduce more steel into the process by braiding or twisting steel rods in with iron rods and hammering out a skelp. The skelp could be welded into a simple or spiral barrel or the skelps made into thin rods and twisted as before. The twisted rods are braided together with other twisted rods heated and hammered yielding a skelp that is then welded into a Damascus twist barrel. The way those rods are braided or packed, even folded, yields the striking patterns you see in Damascus barrels. I have never seen a simple welded Damascus barrel. They have all been spirally welded but technically you could weld a straight simple seam. Then you have "laminated" steel barrels, which I understand as made from flat bars of steel and iron arranged in layers and hammered into a solid skelp to be welded up into a barrel or twisted and then welded into a barrel. Laminated barrels became more popular as steel became more abundant and cheaper. "

dave

 

[mmutarelli]

Awesome!

MM

 

[Rudyard]

Awsome indeed The Elder Greeners book is about I have a copy .If one comes up Ile grab it for you .Both Greeners where very opinionated that theirs where the best & Henry Sharpe did the same for Westley Richards . I remain a devotee of twist & Damascus barrels of what ever nation produced them If I think it unlikley any will be made today . Though the Late Jim Hash was a master at such work and others likley are as capable but generally I cant see a return to common manufacture of such barrels . I stocked up as many as I can do .little careing for there use so much a putting them into context with related mounts Like The Ketland / Alonso Martinez I mentioned earlier .Wrought iron in scelps or twisted form could be made if I cant see a big demand but what matter . The long late Major Noel Corry brought tons of Kurdish & related barrels into the UK they where apparently confiscated barrels in Police stations He was after Persian artillery Lugers but sort of had to take the barrels as part of the deal he sold them very cheap but he had literally tons & I bought & aquired some from the early 70s . Ime glad he did good on him..
Regards Rudyard