Bare Ball In A Smoothie ?

[54ball]

Note: This post is NOT directed at anyone in particular!Then why post it? It's kind of like that drive by bullet...To whom it may concern!
If someone wants to replicate exactly, the shooting of a smooth bore.
They would be using questionable black powder, something out of a bear's ass for lubricant, used loin cloths for patching, even leaves.
So if you are intent in shooting variable dimensioned bare balls ( as they were cast from poor fitting bag moulds, many balls looked like eggs, rather than balls).
Go for it! I have done these things but you distort facts to make a point that as yet I really do not understand since traditional methods are discussed on a traditional forum. Secondly this topic was about bare ball loads. As has been discussed a true bare ball load with no wadding or patch at all is potentially dangerous. Yet a bare ball on wadding, topped with wadding is a safe and uh-oh documented method that is also effective. Why is that so offensive to some? All I have done is share what I have had success with and in this case much more success and ease of use than I had with a PRB. If someone wants to use the PRB then by all means. Go for it.

I am not convinced powder was of poor quality in those times, Oerter in 1776 mentions the fine powder he has for a customers new rifle. The French, namely the Duponts were renowned for their fine powder. In my opinion references to poor powder have more to do with powder that had been contaminated or stored poorly.

Sometimes period terminology is not clear, it is possible that the term patch and wadding at times may have been interchanged.

As far as a bears ass, bear grease is highly sought after by many as the lube of choice for a PRB.

In most cases you would be using square shot, or swan shot, and neither of them worked too well either. Just what are these "most cases? Really good dropped shot was made and sorted in the 18th Century and even used by the Indians.
A proper fitted round ball of the right diameter with a well lubed patch will work well and safely.
So the stitch counters, and HC police are really blowing smoke. I agree a PRB works well. Part of the fun for me is casting ball from my bag mould and using things that are somewhat imperfect to make a perfect shot consistently. Some may not want to go that far, that's OK some may want to use a Remington 1100, that's OK too. And Yes I am blowing smoke but I'm hitting what I am aiming and killing deer too.
Fred :stir:

 

[tenngun]

if all those imperfections referred to infact effected the shooting greatly it is unlikely Indians would have used fusils so heavily. Even after American factories were supply rifles smoothies remained common. About the best you can do loading from horn and bag is 30 seconds, much slower then a bow. Accuracy had to at least be on a par with an arrow or there would have been no use to have bought them. Making use of a fusil is accepting it's limitations. Even the cheapest trade gun was a good shooting tough working gun. I use a prb for hunting but my just plane fun I shoot it with wad. It shoots well enough that I would not fear hunting with a wadded ball, May next fall.

 

[Britsmoothy]

One aspect is also safety! To a native getting a snug ball in a snug patch stuck would be problematic, maybe.
As Tgun says, if it was on par with an arrow accuracy wise at arrow distance it will have the advantage in destructive force over an arrow.
So with their hunting skill distance shooting may not of been as important as it can be to us!

So in essence there was no need to risk a tight ball/patch combo! Don't mean it never happened. Just that there was no need to!

B.

 

[Ron LaClair]

All of the varying opinions confirm that all smoothbore are not alike. Over the years I've owned many smoothies, most of them shot well with a little experimenting with various loads. A standard load for most of the 20's that I have and have had is 80gr 2ff with a .595prb. That load has always given me good accuracy and in some cases VERY good accuracy. The last few years I have favored my Center Mark Fusil de Chase 20ga. My hunting load has been 90gr 2ff behind a .595prb. I have experimented with shooting a bare ball and have been getting good accuracy with a .610 ball. This size ball requires pushing down with a rod in a fouled barrel.

My plan is to use this as a hunting load next fall using wasp nest as wadding.

The quest continues

 

[Ron LaClair]

This buffalo was shot at 70yds with a 20ga smoothbore loaded with 80gr 2ff and a 595prb. The ball went through the ribs and OUT the other side.

 

[Grullaguy]

I have a few.570" and in my .58 on a wad of overshot cards do quite well.
If I stumbled on some .570" ball in a shop I would buy them.
Other han that I prefere to cast for a patch.

B.

I have a trade gun in 58 caliber which will only take a .570 ball. ( guess that makes it a 57 caliber )
I had been shooting it for a year with patched .562" balls, but had an opportunity to buy 500 commercially cast .570" ball for $10. At the range, I found I could not fit the balls in the muzzle even with a .010" patch and resorted to using some of my cut up cleaning rags for an over powder wad and hornet nest for an over ball wad.
At 50 yrds, I was very happy to be ringing the gong on most shots with only a front sight.
Accuracy was not as good as my patched ball load, but was still decent enough to impress the other shooters.

 

[shawn_c992001]

Has anyone tried a leather wad with a round ball?

 

[tenngun]

I have found that you need a much smaller ball in a patch in a smooth bore then you would use in a rifle. I know a boy who made a . 62 rifle so he could use the same ball in his smoothie. Didn't work. .595 or .600 is too loose for the rifle and .610 to tight for the fusil... Just a thought.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You betcha there ole pard....just saying it can lead to all sorts of confusion. While I also try to match history as best I can...I use a leather patched ball since it gives me the foremost accuracy and it's what I feel I owe to any deer, bear or over aggressive armadillo I come across. Is it 100% historical...no idea, never found "I patched my ball with deer hide", no where I've looked. Don't lose any sleep worrying either. I try my best to be historical but the more I learn, the more I wonder what it really means. Just enough contradictory comments to make me shake my old noggin. One reason I always read your posts with such interest. Keep up the good work Spence, you really are helping us along the way to being all we can be! :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[tenngun]

I have also found paper cartridges gives hunting accuracy. I have not made any for some years as I don't think they were popular for civilians. I would paint my paper with bees wax, pour the powder down and comple the paper so it holds the ball and forms a wad.

 

[George]

Is it 100% historical...no idea, never found "I patched my ball with deer hide", no where I've looked.

Leather is well documented, both as patches and wads. Some of the earliest references describe patching with soft leather, oiled. Leather wads, either shredded or punched, are, too.

1767, Thomas Page, "Tow, I think, is uncertain. If cards be used, the end of your rammer must be almost as broad as your barrel will admit of, to go down free, and quite flat at the end, to prevent the card from turning; and must be push'd down gradually, to give time for the air to pass, otherwise it will be troublesome. This is therefore not the quickest way. Old hat may be used in the same manner, which is rather better: and some say leather shreds are best."

1812, Wm. Duane, military, "The rifleman”¦.must be taught how to use the plaister, which is a piece of greased flannel, fustian, or soft leather, to facilitate the passage of the ball into the barrel, and clean it."

and,

"A method has been usefully resorted to of providing a punch made of steel, which by means of a hollow barrel equal to the calibre, cut either hat, or leather pieces to serve as wads, which are forced down immediately on the powder, after the powder is levelled well by a stroke of the but against the ground."

I've never tried leather, either as patch or wads, but I know several people on the forum use them successfully.

Spence

 

[Artificer]

1767, Thomas Page, "Tow, I think, is uncertain. If cards be used, the end of your rammer must be almost as broad as your barrel will admit of, to go down free, and quite flat at the end, to prevent the card from turning; and must be push'd down gradually, to give time for the air to pass, otherwise it will be troublesome. This is therefore not the quickest way. Old hat may be used in the same manner, which is rather better: and some say leather shreds are best."

Spence

I am extremely grateful that Spence provides so much original documentation for this Forum, purely from an historic standpoint.

However, I wish I had read the above quote before or during when I was shooting a Navy Arms "Brown Bess" Carbine in the Northwest Trade Gun Matches in the Mid 1970's!! I used the steel rammer on that gun and found the exact same thing when using paper cards over 200 years later. The button on the end of the steel rammer was just small enough that I had to be careful the paper cards would not slip/turn when loading them.

The more we know from historic documentation MAY just give us helpful hints like this for modern shooting of traditional arms.

So, once again, HUZZAH for Spence for including this quote! :hatsoff:

Gus

 

[Wes/Tex]

Thanks Spence....knew if anyone had documentation, It'd be you! :thumbsup: Figured it just had to be so and have used it for some time now usually because of our years of drought and the lesser chance of lather smoldering on the ground. Still check them each time...just too much of a chance to assume!