Captain Rob
36 Cl.
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Hi folks, I'm wanting to make a ball Bag and a shot pouch for my trade gun. How were these made back in the day and what was used to hold them open? Any patterns out there?
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Ball Bag
- Thread starter Captain Rob
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hanshi
Cannon
I don't know much about how they were made back in the day, but there are so many types/ways that it's a likely "preference" thing. I've made drawstring, rigid with a stopper, etc, and they all work.
Are you talking about a hard ball bag, like a ball flask?
If so, these look like decent instructions: Мастер-класс смотреть онлайн: DIY Project: Handmade Leather Flask | Livemaster Magazine. This appears to be intended as a drinking flask or canteen, so you wouldn't have to worry so much about the watertight part for your purpose.
If so, these look like decent instructions: Мастер-класс смотреть онлайн: DIY Project: Handmade Leather Flask | Livemaster Magazine. This appears to be intended as a drinking flask or canteen, so you wouldn't have to worry so much about the watertight part for your purpose.
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“Trade gun” can refer to a period from the later half of the 1600s up into the 1870s.
What period are you meaning?
What period are you meaning?
Archer 756
40 Cal.
Go to Log Cabin and look under ball bags and you will find a book , paper back, on making raw hide ball bags 
Brokennock
Cannon
Like this?
I have made several and have different size patterns, slightly different shapes, depending on how many ball I want it to hold.
P.m. me and we can arrange for me to mail you a pattern. Though it is really simple to make.
I have made several and have different size patterns, slightly different shapes, depending on how many ball I want it to hold.
P.m. me and we can arrange for me to mail you a pattern. Though it is really simple to make.
Archer 756
40 Cal.
Log Cabin book that I mention is not worth the cost just got my book and it is NG 
hanshi
Cannon
These are three of mine, all hard sided. I have a few others but no photos. I prefer these types over my drawstring ball bags.
Captain Rob
36 Cl.
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This is exactly what I am looking for/ I will send you a PM
Captain Rob
36 Cl.
- Joined
- May 5, 2020
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 83
I like those designsThese are three of mine, all hard sided. I have a few others but no photos. I prefer these types over my drawstring ball bags.
OhioHawkeye
32 Cal.
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I do not like making noise. Hard ball containers make noise as the ball rattles in them.
I prefer carrying a possibles bag with my tools and slinging another shooting bag across the other solder. In that bag there are separate pockets for ball, cards, wads for the gun. If I forget that, I just use a standard bag putting the ball in the little pocket in the back and the cards and wads go in the main part. Patches are in a Sucrets box paint burned off and oiled. Shot is carried separably in a shot snake, I also have about 4 loads worth in a little brain-tan bag with a narrow opening that just folds over. (no drawstring)
yes despite conversations on facebook to the contrary, a possibles bag and a shooting bag are two different things. Possibles take care of everything possible that can go wrong..i.e. tools. and a shooting bag carries stuffs to assist shooting.
I prefer carrying a possibles bag with my tools and slinging another shooting bag across the other solder. In that bag there are separate pockets for ball, cards, wads for the gun. If I forget that, I just use a standard bag putting the ball in the little pocket in the back and the cards and wads go in the main part. Patches are in a Sucrets box paint burned off and oiled. Shot is carried separably in a shot snake, I also have about 4 loads worth in a little brain-tan bag with a narrow opening that just folds over. (no drawstring)
yes despite conversations on facebook to the contrary, a possibles bag and a shooting bag are two different things. Possibles take care of everything possible that can go wrong..i.e. tools. and a shooting bag carries stuffs to assist shooting.
As stated they can be almost anything. No pics of mine because they are not much different than what others have posted. Crudely stitched, I use heavy leather inside spout/mouth and a whittled hunk of wood for stopper. BTW, I laughed at the "rattle" comment about lead balls.
"yes despite conversations on facebook to the contrary, a possibles bag and a shooting bag are two different things. Possibles take care of everything possible that can go wrong..i.e. tools. and a shooting bag carries stuffs to assist shooting."
Could be called a "man's purse" as well.
Could be called a "man's purse" as well.
Brokennock
Cannon
I like the bag to be soft so it conforms to the inside of the shot pouch and takes up less space.
Some samples,
Then one to the far left that is reddish brown is really too big. It doesn't look that much bigger but when full, it really is. I only use it for range use, was thinking I could use it if I ever get to attend a woodswalk.
I prefer softer leather too, turning that one was a nightmare. I know not everyone turns theirs, but I prefer it.
The baseball stitch bag shown in my 1st reply is different for me. Haven't decided if I like it, will have to see how it holds up.
I mostly use the yellow pattern. The two bags above it were made from it with adjustments for the neck insert. The pattern below the big reddish bag made that bag, and I don't think I have one made with the huge pattern on the right.
Again, making these, including the pattern is not hard. Making the neck fit and making a good stopper for the neck is the hardest part.
Some samples,
Then one to the far left that is reddish brown is really too big. It doesn't look that much bigger but when full, it really is. I only use it for range use, was thinking I could use it if I ever get to attend a woodswalk.
I prefer softer leather too, turning that one was a nightmare. I know not everyone turns theirs, but I prefer it.
The baseball stitch bag shown in my 1st reply is different for me. Haven't decided if I like it, will have to see how it holds up.
I mostly use the yellow pattern. The two bags above it were made from it with adjustments for the neck insert. The pattern below the big reddish bag made that bag, and I don't think I have one made with the huge pattern on the right.
Again, making these, including the pattern is not hard. Making the neck fit and making a good stopper for the neck is the hardest part.
longcruise
70 Cal.
Ok, someone has to be the contrarian so I'll step up and do it!
So, you guys put your balls in a bag with a stopper.... and then you put that in another bag?? LOL.
I don't get it. Is it just an excuse to make another accessory? If so, more power to ya. I enjoy making stuff too but if I ever get the yen to make one I'll probably give it away.
So, you guys put your balls in a bag with a stopper.... and then you put that in another bag?? LOL.
I don't get it. Is it just an excuse to make another accessory? If so, more power to ya. I enjoy making stuff too but if I ever get the yen to make one I'll probably give it away.
Brokennock
Cannon
Neatness counts. Don't like unorganized stuff wandering around in my shot pouch.
Might do differently if I only shot patched round ball out of a rifle. Then I'd probably make a small shot pouch with a divider and put loose ball and a strip of patching in the front division and field maintenance stuff and cow's knee in the rear.
Also the ball bag allows me the option to leave the shoulder slung shot pouch behind and just throw the ball bag and small flat horn in pockets along with a small container of wads.
Might do differently if I only shot patched round ball out of a rifle. Then I'd probably make a small shot pouch with a divider and put loose ball and a strip of patching in the front division and field maintenance stuff and cow's knee in the rear.
Also the ball bag allows me the option to leave the shoulder slung shot pouch behind and just throw the ball bag and small flat horn in pockets along with a small container of wads.
longcruise
70 Cal.
I'm on board with the shot container. If, or should say when, I acquire a smooth bore I'll definitely use something to hold the shot.
I don't know if this will help you or not, but since you specifically asked for shot and bullet pouches to go with a trade gun, here we go...
The following is from George T. Emmon's monograph, The Tahltan Indians, which was published in 1911:
Lieutenant Emmons (1852-1945) was in the U.S. Navy, and was stationed in Alaska in the 1880's. He was interested in the native people, and he photographed and wrote extensively about them, especially the Tlingit and Tahltan.
The Tahltan people speak an Athabaskan language and live in western British Columbia, a way inland from the coast. As noted by Lt. Emmons, they were very familiar with trade guns, and this passage from Emmons' monograph gives a pretty good synopsis of their shooting kit. They apparently carried powder in horns as well as pouches like the one illustrated, and Emmons indicated the same type of pouch was used for shot. This powder horn is one he collected from the Tahltan:
Emmons mentioned an "open-mouthed oblong bag for bullets," suggesting a small, simple bag or pouch without the bone neck. I didn't find an example. However, here are a couple of shot or powder pouches he collected from the Tahltan people. The first one has a plain bone spout:
This next one has a nicely carved bone spout, and it may be the same one illustrated in the drawing:
I think the edge beading on these is really cool. I don't know what was used to wrap the neck of the leather pouch around the bone neck. It looks like it might be copper wire, although I suppose it could be gut, turned dark with age. All of these artifacts, incidentally, are in the National Museum of the American Indian.
Again, I don't know if any of this will help or not, but maybe they can give an idea of what some trade gun shooters were using in the past.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
The following is from George T. Emmon's monograph, The Tahltan Indians, which was published in 1911:
Lieutenant Emmons (1852-1945) was in the U.S. Navy, and was stationed in Alaska in the 1880's. He was interested in the native people, and he photographed and wrote extensively about them, especially the Tlingit and Tahltan.
The Tahltan people speak an Athabaskan language and live in western British Columbia, a way inland from the coast. As noted by Lt. Emmons, they were very familiar with trade guns, and this passage from Emmons' monograph gives a pretty good synopsis of their shooting kit. They apparently carried powder in horns as well as pouches like the one illustrated, and Emmons indicated the same type of pouch was used for shot. This powder horn is one he collected from the Tahltan:
Emmons mentioned an "open-mouthed oblong bag for bullets," suggesting a small, simple bag or pouch without the bone neck. I didn't find an example. However, here are a couple of shot or powder pouches he collected from the Tahltan people. The first one has a plain bone spout:
This next one has a nicely carved bone spout, and it may be the same one illustrated in the drawing:
I think the edge beading on these is really cool. I don't know what was used to wrap the neck of the leather pouch around the bone neck. It looks like it might be copper wire, although I suppose it could be gut, turned dark with age. All of these artifacts, incidentally, are in the National Museum of the American Indian.
Again, I don't know if any of this will help or not, but maybe they can give an idea of what some trade gun shooters were using in the past.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
These are a few ball or shot flasks I have made. These are all "hard sided," and don't need a separate spout to hold the mouth open:
The two on the left were cut to the same pattern, but made of different materials and stitched using a different technique. The one on the left is of 4 ounce vegetable tanned tooling leather. It was left unfinished, but has acquired some patina from use and UV exposure. This one was stitched using linen thread and a saddle stitch. The one in the middle is of heavy rawhide, using artificial sinew in a whipstitch. The one on the right was the first of these that I made. The rawhide came from a steer slaughtered by a neighbor many years ago. She gave me the hide the day the animal was killed, and I cured it by careful fleshing, washing with Octagon soap, stretching, and drying. This hide was also left outside on freezing cold nights. It got frozen and covered with frost while it was still green, before it dried. The freezing gave the hide a really nice creamy off white color. No salt or bleaching agents or chemicals of any kind were used in curing this hide, and it turned out the best of any I did. The stitching is done in a whipstitch, using cord made of beargrass (Yucca filamentosa) fibers. Beargrass grows in the woods around here, and I collected some while out rambling. The stopper is whittled out of cherry wood from a tree that was dropped on my property. This flask is really kind of funny-looking, but I can honestly say it is all home made!
The second photo shows the stoppers removed. The one on the right has already been described. The one on the left has just a piece of 5/8" dowel for a stopper. This was meant to be temporary, but I haven't gotten around to making a proper one yet. The stopper for the middle flask is a .69 caliber musket tompion.
The next picture shows the flasks in the same order, left to right, with the mouths visible:
For any given pattern you use, the mouth diameter can be "adjusted" to some extent by the type of stitching you use and the thickness of the leather. If you use the same pattern for two flasks and stitch them the same way but cut them from different weights of leather, the heavier leather will give a flask with a smaller mouth opening. Saddle stitching will close it up more than whip stitching.
I make these flasks by stitching two pieces of hide together, then soaking the flask until it is thoroughly wet. I then pack it full of "sandbox sand," from the builder's supply. This has really coarse grains. I have heard of using lead shot or even rice for this purpose, but I haven't tried them. You fill the flask with sand, insert a dowel in the mouth and drive it in with a mallet. Pull out the dowel, put in more sand and pack it again with the dowel. Keep doing that until you are satisfied it will hold no more and is filled out the way you want it, then put it aside and let it dry completely. You can then knock out the sand, carve a stopper to fit, and you're good to go.
Balls or shot will rattle softly in these hard sided flasks, which may be a concern if you need to go quietly. However, the contents pour out more easily than with a soft-sided pouch, and you don't need to worry about fitting a separate neck of wood, bone, glass, or whatever. It's a trade off.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
The two on the left were cut to the same pattern, but made of different materials and stitched using a different technique. The one on the left is of 4 ounce vegetable tanned tooling leather. It was left unfinished, but has acquired some patina from use and UV exposure. This one was stitched using linen thread and a saddle stitch. The one in the middle is of heavy rawhide, using artificial sinew in a whipstitch. The one on the right was the first of these that I made. The rawhide came from a steer slaughtered by a neighbor many years ago. She gave me the hide the day the animal was killed, and I cured it by careful fleshing, washing with Octagon soap, stretching, and drying. This hide was also left outside on freezing cold nights. It got frozen and covered with frost while it was still green, before it dried. The freezing gave the hide a really nice creamy off white color. No salt or bleaching agents or chemicals of any kind were used in curing this hide, and it turned out the best of any I did. The stitching is done in a whipstitch, using cord made of beargrass (Yucca filamentosa) fibers. Beargrass grows in the woods around here, and I collected some while out rambling. The stopper is whittled out of cherry wood from a tree that was dropped on my property. This flask is really kind of funny-looking, but I can honestly say it is all home made!
The second photo shows the stoppers removed. The one on the right has already been described. The one on the left has just a piece of 5/8" dowel for a stopper. This was meant to be temporary, but I haven't gotten around to making a proper one yet. The stopper for the middle flask is a .69 caliber musket tompion.
The next picture shows the flasks in the same order, left to right, with the mouths visible:
For any given pattern you use, the mouth diameter can be "adjusted" to some extent by the type of stitching you use and the thickness of the leather. If you use the same pattern for two flasks and stitch them the same way but cut them from different weights of leather, the heavier leather will give a flask with a smaller mouth opening. Saddle stitching will close it up more than whip stitching.
I make these flasks by stitching two pieces of hide together, then soaking the flask until it is thoroughly wet. I then pack it full of "sandbox sand," from the builder's supply. This has really coarse grains. I have heard of using lead shot or even rice for this purpose, but I haven't tried them. You fill the flask with sand, insert a dowel in the mouth and drive it in with a mallet. Pull out the dowel, put in more sand and pack it again with the dowel. Keep doing that until you are satisfied it will hold no more and is filled out the way you want it, then put it aside and let it dry completely. You can then knock out the sand, carve a stopper to fit, and you're good to go.
Balls or shot will rattle softly in these hard sided flasks, which may be a concern if you need to go quietly. However, the contents pour out more easily than with a soft-sided pouch, and you don't need to worry about fitting a separate neck of wood, bone, glass, or whatever. It's a trade off.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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I am fairly new at the muzzleloader stuff, but I just keep my lead in a small leather bag that laces closed. Some of these designs are quite nice though.
