Attention Britts...please help me out with grades of black powder

[Eterry]

I am currently reading Game Guns and Rifles, by Richard Akehurst. I am really enjoying the book, especially where he writes of charges used in muzzle loading guns (smooth for shot) and rifles. Several places he refers to the information on the case lid. Imagine a modern user with a 16 Bore rifle, throwing a one ounce ball, and 2 to 2 1/2 drams (55 to 70 grains) of black! Most would call it a powder puff load, at least by modern standards.

My question comes from the section where he quotes load data for Lord Ripon's 12 bore made up by Purdey and Sons. They use No. 2 Black and Schultze powder. Elsewhere he quotes manufacturers speaking of Black powder in grades No. 2, 4, 6, and 8. Who knows what No's. 2 thru 8 would be comparable to in modern grades, and what is Schultze ?

Its interesting Lord Ripon's last muzzleloading shotgun had choked barrels, and Purdey provided patterns and penetration results at 40 yards

 

[Britsmoothy]

I understood schultze to be early nitro based fuel.
Feltwad would know more than me about this.

I still maintain mind you that chokes were first developed to overcome the issue of doughnut patterns associated with heavy powder charges of black powder when attempting to increase power.
It's just an opinion though.

 

[Rudall]

Google

 

[ResearchPress]

Nos. 2, 4, 6 & 8 are likely Curtis and Harvey powder grades. No. 2 was the fine grade, and getting coarser as the number increases. I don't have any comparative charts of sizes. Schultze powder was evidently more 'powerful' then black: in Curtis & Harvey's 1887 'Notes on Shooting' it says "The usual charge for a 12-bore gun is 82 grains of No. 4 Curtis's & Harvey's Black Powder, or 42 grains of Schultze, and 1 1/8 oz. of shot." Velocity tests with those loads gave 1,162 feet/sec. with No. 4 Black and 1,134 with Schultze Powder at 100ft from the muzzle.

I have a 19thC powder magazine that includes three containers, labelled 2, 4, 6 - relating to the powder grades.

David

 

[Eterry]

I understood schultze to be early nitro based fuel.
Feltwad would know more than me about this.

I still maintain mind you that chokes were first developed to overcome the issue of doughnut patterns associated with heavy powder charges of black powder when attempting to increase power.
It's just an opinion though.

Its interesting to note how Purdey and Son used the FINEST black powder to pattern and test for penetration. I'm guessing this would correspond to a powder similar to FFFFG.
Also noted, was a heavier load of powder used for "Covert shooting". I'm guessing this was up close and personal, so loaded a heavier powder charge to spread the shot. That would confirm the use of less powder for a tighter pattern, more to open it up.
Do you think I am wrong?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Its interesting to note how Purdey and Son used the FINEST black powder to pattern and test for penetration. I'm guessing this would correspond to a powder similar to FFFFG.
Also noted, was a heavier load of powder used for "Covert shooting". I'm guessing this was up close and personal, so loaded a heavier powder charge to spread the shot. That would confirm the use of less powder for a tighter pattern, more to open it up.
Do you think I am wrong?

Wrong about what?

 

[Sidney Smith]

I am currently reading Game Guns and Rifles, by Richard Akehurst. I am really enjoying the book, especially where he writes of charges used in muzzle loading guns (smooth for shot) and rifles. Several places he refers to the information on the case lid. Imagine a modern user with a 16 Bore rifle, throwing a one ounce ball, and 2 to 2 1/2 drams (55 to 70 grains) of black! Most would call it a powder puff load, at least by modern standards.

My question comes from the section where he quotes load data for Lord Ripon's 12 bore made up by Purdey and Sons. They use No. 2 Black and Schultze powder. Elsewhere he quotes manufacturers speaking of Black powder in grades No. 2, 4, 6, and 8. Who knows what No's. 2 thru 8 would be comparable to in modern grades, and what is Schultze ?

Its interesting Lord Ripon's last muzzleloading shotgun had choked barrels, and Purdey provided patterns and penetration results at 40 yards

During the Civil War, most of the soldiers were loading between about 55 to 60 grains of blackpowder to propel those mini balls. I think a 58 caliber mini weighs somewhere around 500 grains. That charge may be considered powder puff by today's standards but it got the job done at the ranges where most of the skirmishes took place.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I believe (speculate) that when Purdey mentioned the use of the finest powder, he meant finest in the sense of best or most active or potent, not fine in the size of the grains. For example 3fg Swiss powder would be considered finest when compared to 3fg GOEX even though the grain sizes are the same. We are talking here about sporting grade powder as opposed to musket grade powder.

 

[hanshi]

And a hit, any hit, with 500 grains of lead will ruin anybody's day!

 

[Eterry]

Wrong about what?

The maker of the shotgun suggested a heavier powder charge to spread the shot charge.
Does that sound right?

 

[Eterry]

I believe (speculate) that when Purdey mentioned the use of the finest powder, he meant finest in the sense of best or most active or potent, not fine in the size of the grains. For example 3fg Swiss powder would be considered finest when compared to 3fg GOEX even though the grain sizes are the same. We are talking here about sporting grade powder as opposed to musket grade powder.

Purdey did not say Finest, those are my words. They said no. 2 powder, which according to David is a fine grain of powder.
According to the manufacturer they suggested using something close to fffg or ffffg. That's how I see it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The maker of the shotgun suggested a heavier powder charge to spread the shot charge.
Does that sound right?

Oh I see, yes, I guess that would spread it. I do in fact add a little more fine powder for a particular piece of woodland when trying for woodcock.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Good news, called in a gun store today and they had the correct and only useful grade in stock .

 

[Sparkitoff]

My 14-bore Purdey has a charge label that says 5 grams Fine Powder/28 grams shot.

It has a scoop that may have been made for it. It holds around 72 grains of powder and just over 1 ounce of shot.

I have no way to measure grams volumetrically. So I just use the scoop and all is well. The point is, the label says FINE POWDER.

I never paid much attention to it, but wrote it off as a reference to quality. In hindsight, it may refer to granulation size.

 

[chorizo]

Covert shooting referred to hunting in the brushy and closed in enclaves (a covert)
Up close. Also very fast shooting if driven.

• covert
  An area of scrub, brush, or woods where wild animals find protection

A driven hog hunt, up close, with an express rifle is a kick in the pants!

 

[nhmoose]

Isn't the old sayings less powder more shot kills better and shoots tighter Vs More powder and less shot spreads faster.?

For me quicker spread is great for woodcock while the first of less powder more shot better for grouse and rabbits.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

The no 2 powder spoken of above, was still made by Curtis' and Harvey, after all other numbers were discontinued except no 6. .
The No 2 was a bit coarser than 3 F I would say, and No 6 a bit coarser than 2F. (Maybe more like 1F Goex)
2 3/4 drams of No 2 and an ounce of shot worked awfully well ! That I know. (in a 12 bore)
3 drams of No 6 and 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 ounce was a real good game stopper load as well.

Better gunsmiths always regulated their guns for the type of shooting required, and if you used the recommended load, you should get the patterns they quote, on average.
Yes guns were regulated at 40 yards. Standard proceedure. A well regulated true cylinder should produce about a 40 percent pattern at 40 yards, a perfect game -getting pattern!

I think (Think!) the covert shooting quote for heavier charges was because of shooting through brush and branches. This is just a guess!!

Schultz powder was a wood -based powder using gun cotton if I remember right. It was a bit more powerful than black, but was a bulk powder so could still be used as a substitute for black.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Britsmoothy]

My 14-bore Purdey has a charge label that says 5 grams Fine Powder/28 grams shot.

It has a scoop that may have been made for it. It holds around 72 grains of powder and just over 1 ounce of shot.

I have no way to measure grams volumetrically. So I just use the scoop and all is well. The point is, the label says FINE POWDER.

I never paid much attention to it, but wrote it off as a reference to quality. In hindsight, it may refer to granulation size.

Should be throwing 77-78gns so with a finer granulation would be close.
Sounds like the maker of your gun knew a thing or two before someone coined the phrase "pipe bomb"!
Try it, I would, err do.

 

[tenngun]

The maker of the shotgun suggested a heavier powder charge to spread the shot charge.
Does that sound right?

Yes, as powder goes up it blows your pattern. A square load same shot volume as powder, 70 grains of powder occupies about the same volume as one ounce of lead, as a basic measure. Decreased powder leads to tight patterns, increased to larger
As Britsmoothie says large charges tend to blow the wad right through the center of the charge making a donut. And smokeless as a ‘four dram equivalent’ is going to be hitting they shot column real hard blowing it apart in the center.
Like him I Think choking was an attempt to off set this and longer range was just serendipity
There is a little ditty about less powder more shot, but I don’t recall the words. But it’s to the point that it kills while big charges dont

 

[tenngun]

I would point out to the difference between powder quality. In flint lock days gents could own a powder tester. A pistol with a calibrated spring dial. One would load and shoot several shots. Noting how far the dial turned each time. Then you got a sense of how good your powder was.
Contemporary Brown Bess shooting low grade powder might take charges up to 250 grains. And the government powder carried by Lewis and Clark were in lead boxes. One eight pound box could hold four pounds of powder. Shooting a .50 contract rifle a 50% charge would be about 90 grains. If they had the .54 HF rifle a 110 grain charge.
On the other hand the .69 caliber American Charlies would be eating 220 grains
Umph
DuPoint moved to America knowing wealth was at hand if he could just make decent powder here.