ASM Charleville 1777. Round ball question

[Offday]

Hello, I'm new here, just signed up.
So... hello everyone.
I've been shooting BP pistols for some time now, mostly revolvers of various caliber.
I stumbled onto a asm 1777 charleville copy. And...had to have it, my first flintlock....more importantly, first smooth bore.
I know its "supposed" to be .69 caliber.
Using bore mics I'm getting .687.
I realize original loading was paper cartridge. Kind of a loose fitting affair.
My plan... is running patched ball.
Problem is....pre cast balls are sometimes not the diameter they state.
Orderd some .675 balls from Track of the Wolf, which measure out to .678 in reality.
But.. they won't just roll down the barrel as I expected.
And large caliber pre cast balls are a little expensive to just be buying several different sizes just to "see".
So, that said casting molds that size are pretty much a custom order affair. Largest commercial mold available I can find is .600
I'm going to order a JT mold, but I'm hoping someone here has some experience with this.
Do I get a .657 mold and patch .015 patches
To get me to .687 combined ball +patch?
I can always run 0.10 patches if it feels a little too tight with .015.
I don't want to be "hammering" the ball home.
I already ordered what I need to start casting round ball for my other bp arms.
But the last thing I need is to order a mold from JT and be out $60 for something I can't use. And have to order another. I'm not familiar with where to begin, everything else I own has a manual listing exactly what to use ball wise. Here there's no online manual to be found..this is virgin territory for me.
Any information and your insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance

 

[Zonie]

I can't tell you what size ball mold to get but normally, the combined size of the ball plus twice the patch thickness will be slightly larger than the bore size of the barrel it's going to be used in.

Jumping to rifled bores for instance, with a .45 caliber rifle a .440 diameter ball and a .015 to .020 thick patch is used. The resulting size of this contamination if a .015 thick patchis used is .440 + .015 + .015 = .470.
With a rifled pistol a common ball/patch combinition would be a .440 ball with a .010 thick patch for a combined size of .440 + .010 + .010 = .460 or .015 over the bore size.
Of course, part of the reason for this is the patched ball must seal off the rifling grooves.

With a smoothbore, I think a combined size should be at least .010 larger than the bore to assure a good seal that won't be burned thru by the high pressure gasses.

Getting to your gun, if a .678 diameter ball won't roll freely down the bore it tells me the bore is slightly less than that size, at least somewhere along its length. The fact that it does go down the bore some distance says we could use that size for a bore diameter.

That said, if the ball was .668 and a .015 thick patch was used the combined size would be .698 or .011 larger than the bore size you measured at the muzzle. At the "tight area" it would be .020 larger than the bore size.

Remember, the cloth is fairly soft and it doesn't take a lot of force to compress it.

With that said, I'll sit back and let the guys who actually shoot round balls in their smoothbores tell you the right answer.

 

[Offday]

I can't tell you what size ball mold to get but normally, the combined size of the ball plus twice the patch thickness will be slightly larger than the bore size of the barrel it's going to be used in.

Jumping to rifled bores for instance, with a .45 caliber rifle a .440 diameter ball and a .015 to .020 thick patch is used. The resulting size of this contamination if a .015 thick patchis used is .440 + .015 + .015 = .470.
With a rifled pistol a common ball/patch combinition would be a .440 ball with a .010 thick patch for a combined size of .440 + .010 + .010 = .460 or .015 over the bore size.
Of course, part of the reason for this is the patched ball must seal off the rifling grooves.

With a smoothbore, I think a combined size should be at least .010 larger than the bore to assure a good seal that won't be burned thru by the high pressure gasses.

Getting to your gun, if a .678 diameter ball won't roll freely down the bore it tells me the bore is slightly less than that size, at least somewhere along its length. The fact that it does go down the bore some distance says we could use that size for a bore diameter.

That said, if the ball was .668 and a .015 thick patch was used the combined size would be .698 or .011 larger than the bore size you measured at the muzzle. At the "tight area" it would be .020 larger than the bore size.

Remember, the cloth is fairly soft and it doesn't take a lot of force to compress it.

With that said, I'll sit back and let the guys who actually shoot round balls in their smoothbores tell you the right answer.

I appreciate the input,
This pistol as stated original loading was paper cartridge, tear the paper, pour powder , drop ball, and seat the paper on top, the barrel is what I'd consider "thin walled" compaired to say a rifled barrel pistol.
I was worried about preasures, depending on powder charge if the ball/patch was too tight a fit.
Basically the original load would be similar to a musket, powder, wad, ball wad.
Not sure if it would be better to be a little undersize on the ball, and maybe double patch if its .010 -.020 undersize to create a good gas seal.
As mentioned, $60 a pop for molds can get expensive to see how its going to work out.

 

[Zonie]

OK. This will probably upset some people but I'll say it anyway.

If you can get the .675 (.678) diameter balls down the barrel so they are sitting on top of the powder charge they will be safe to shoot.

Your gun is far from a precision gun so trying to get the last 1/16" of accuracy out of it is not worth the effort. It is not and it will not ever be a target pistol. It was designed to be a close range gun designed to stop a man size target.

Just load it with what you have and shoot it and have fun. That's what the game is all about.

 

[Rat]

At pistol range, it will shoot just about anything good enough to hit a man sized target. Probably even rocks. You can always go a little too small on the ball size, and make up the difference with thicker patches. With a ball on the large size, you'll only have one choice of patch. I have a musket that shoots undersized balls with a denim patch very well. (.690" balls from a .75" bore) In fact, I have a .62" rifle that shoots .575" balls with a denim patch "okay". Z is right, don't over think ball size in a smooth bore pistol. Go small. Patch material comes in an infinite variety of thickness. And a small ball can be "chewed" in increase it's diameter.

Last time I checked, it wasn't very expensive to buy balls to try, then get a mold when you have figured out what works best for you. Any extra ball can be re-cast, so the lead is never wasted.

 

[Offday]

At pistol range, it will shoot just about anything good enough to hit a man sized target. Probably even rocks. You can always go a little too small on the ball size, and make up the difference with thicker patches. With a ball on the large size, you'll only have one choice of patch. I have a musket that shoots undersized balls with a denim patch very well. (.690" balls from a .75" bore) In fact, I have a .62" rifle that shoots .575" balls with a denim patch "okay". Z is right, don't over think ball size in a smooth bore pistol. Go small. Patch material comes in an infinite variety of thickness. And a small ball can be "chewed" in increase it's diameter.

Last time I checked, it wasn't very expensive to buy balls to try, then get a mold when you have figured out what works best for you. Any extra ball can be re-cast, so the lead is never wasted.

Yeah, balls in a variety of sizes can be had....but they avarage about $13 for 25 balls, plus shipping, I bought 100 and with the shipping it was close to $75.
I settled on a .662 ball mold from lyman.
(Lol...$92) I figured a 0.10 patch will get me .682 total, a 0.15 will get me .692.
Thats a start, and doubling up .10 patches might be perfect once compressed. I'll figure it out, but $92 each for molds can be expensive for experimentation. After watching cap'n'ball's video on shooting the 1777, with a paper cartridge, no patching, and not hitting large papper target at 25 meters (of course his pistol didn't mic out to mine) got me a little frustrated thinking it would be very disappointing to not get on a full size target at least somewhere on the paper. I understand its a smooth bore, and accuracy is poor.
But I don't want to feel like I'm shooting blanks either lol.
Thanks for the input I appreciate it

 

[Rat]

I would have to agree that $75 is getting up there. But...25 would have been enough to experiment with. ?? .662" sounds like a reasonable choice, should easily find a patch thickness that will work well.

I'm not sure if I've seen that particular video or not...seems that I've seen some where accuracy was much much better than that. Will have to review that one. I think that you will achieve good 20 yard accuracy with some experimentation.

 

[Rat]

Okay, have seen that. I'm pretty sure it will/can tighten up a bit. Maybe ten yards would be more realistic. Still looked like at 20 yards, even with the paper cartridges he shot, that you could hit your man, or a wolf, or a hostile cougar. I'd still like to have one as a hunting sidearm, as it could be loaded with shot for small game, would perform a good coup-de-grass, and again, hit a hostile large animal at close range. I think if I had one I'd add some sights, that looked "period" and natural on the pistol of course.

 

[Offday]

I would have to agree that $75 is getting up there. But...25 would have been enough to experiment with. ?? .662" sounds like a reasonable choice, should easily find a patch thickness that will work well.

I'm not sure if I've seen that particular video or not...seems that I've seen some where accuracy was much much better than that. Will have to review that one. I think that you will achieve good 20 yard accuracy with some experimentation.

Yeah, $75 is getting up there, but when they sell them @25 balls, and you're experimenting, thats just 4 different ball sizes. Lol

 

[Offday]

Okay, have seen that. I'm pretty sure it will/can tighten up a bit. Maybe ten yards would be more realistic. Still looked like at 20 yards, even with the paper cartridges he shot, that you could hit your man, or a wolf, or a hostile cougar. I'd still like to have one as a hunting sidearm, as it could be loaded with shot for small game, would perform a good coup-de-grass, and again, hit a hostile large animal at close range. I think if I had one I'd add some sights, that looked "period" and natural on the pistol of course.

Yeah, I'm sure you saw my dilemma watching that video.
Fortunately for me, mine at least has a front bead, no rear sight, but you can actually line up the bead with the rear barrel screw and frame.
Haven't had a chance to take it out yet.

 

[Maven]

Hello, I'm new here, just signed up.
So... hello everyone.
I've been shooting BP pistols for some time now, mostly revolvers of various caliber.
I stumbled onto a asm 1777 charleville copy. And...had to have it, my first flintlock....more importantly, first smooth bore.
I know its "supposed" to be .69 caliber.
Using bore mics I'm getting .687.
I realize original loading was paper cartridge. Kind of a loose fitting affair.
My plan... is running patched ball.
Problem is....pre cast balls are sometimes not the diameter they state.
Orderd some .675 balls from Track of the Wolf, which measure out to .678 in reality.
But.. they won't just roll down the barrel as I expected.
And large caliber pre cast balls are a little expensive to just be buying several different sizes just to "see".
So, that said casting molds that size are pretty much a custom order affair. Largest commercial mold available I can find is .600
I'm going to order a JT mold, but I'm hoping someone here has some experience with this.
Do I get a .657 mold and patch .015 patches
To get me to .687 combined ball +patch?
I can always run 0.10 patches if it feels a little too tight with .015.
I don't want to be "hammering" the ball home.
I already ordered what I need to start casting round ball for my other bp arms.
But the last thing I need is to order a mold from JT and be out $60 for something I can't use. And have to order another. I'm not familiar with where to begin, everything else I own has a manual listing exactly what to use ball wise. Here there's no online manual to be found..this is virgin territory for me.
Any information and your insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance

Offday, I recently purchased a bore diameter mould, i.e. .618"- .619" for my 20ga. trade gun (no rear sight) from Jeff Tanner. While the mould casts well, accuracy hasn't been as good with bare balls (OP card + greased felt wad, but no wad over the ball) as it has been with a patched RB. Regarding the latter, diameter isn't quite as critical as it is for a rifle. Ditto for patch thickness. In my gun, a weighed RB between .598" (Tanner & Lee moulds) and .603" (Lyman mould) is quite accurate with a patch between .014" & .018". (You don't want a combination that's difficult to load.) Using an OP wad helps, but far more critical is powder granulation and charge, which you will have to experiment with.

Not having a .69cal. musket, I can't tell you which diameter RB/RB mould you'll need, but once you determine the actual bore diameter, you'll be in a better position to judge. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

 

[RC61]

Hello, I'm new here, just signed up.
So... hello everyone.
I've been shooting BP pistols for some time now, mostly revolvers of various caliber.
I stumbled onto a asm 1777 charleville copy. And...had to have it, my first flintlock....more importantly, first smooth bore.
I know its "supposed" to be .69 caliber.
Using bore mics I'm getting .687.
I realize original loading was paper cartridge. Kind of a loose fitting affair.
My plan... is running patched ball.
Problem is....pre cast balls are sometimes not the diameter they state.
Orderd some .675 balls from Track of the Wolf, which measure out to .678 in reality.
But.. they won't just roll down the barrel as I expected.
And large caliber pre cast balls are a little expensive to just be buying several different sizes just to "see".
So, that said casting molds that size are pretty much a custom order affair. Largest commercial mold available I can find is .600
I'm going to order a JT mold, but I'm hoping someone here has some experience with this.
Do I get a .657 mold and patch .015 patches
To get me to .687 combined ball +patch?
I can always run 0.10 patches if it feels a little too tight with .015.
I don't want to be "hammering" the ball home.
I already ordered what I need to start casting round ball for my other bp arms.
But the last thing I need is to order a mold from JT and be out $60 for something I can't use. And have to order another. I'm not familiar with where to begin, everything else I own has a manual listing exactly what to use ball wise. Here there's no online manual to be found..this is virgin territory for me.
Any information and your insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance

https://moosemoulds.wixsite.com/mm2013/moose-balls

 

[FlinterNick]

I have a few charleville’s I found that a .655 ball works best in a paper cartridge, a .677 ball with a .010 patch will be tight, .685 of course tighter. I found that a .665 patched round ball works best.

Overall I’ve enjoyed very good accuracy with a .655 paper cartridge and 1F powder.

 

[bud in pa]

I shoot .575 balls in a paper cartridge in my 62 caliber smooth bore. Bite the end off, prime, pour the rest of the powder down the barrel, followed by the ball in the paper, good enough for deer to 50 yards.
.