ASM 1851 Navy revolver

[Kansas Jake]

I've used .451s in a Pieta 58 remington for years with no problem. I've also used them in a several other revolvers and they are okay if they cut a ring as you load them. Try one cylinder at a time. If they load with a cut ring or significant resistance you are probably okay. If they go in easily, then I would definitely move up to .454s. I have a Rogers&Spencer made by Euroarms and if needs .457s. Even .454s are not a tight fit in it. Two things can happen with too loose of a ball. One is you may get a chain fire of other chambers in the cylinder, the other is they may move forward under recoil of and lock up the cylinder. Neither is fun.

 

[Eutycus]

I just left the sporting goods store. According to a recent post, if the chamber measures .449 or less the .451s will work. The mouth of the chamber measured 448.5. So I guess I'll give the 451s a try. I also bought a tin of #10 caps. We tried them on the nipples and they were a good tight fit. I have a bunch of 11s but I'd rather have the snug fit. One less thing to worry about.

 

[Eutycus]

Got another question for y'all . 44 caliber balls seem to measure larger than 45 caliber balls. Do they or did I misread something?

 

[Grenadier1758]

The 45 caliber balls for a rifle are not larger than the 44 caliber balls used in a cap and ball revolver. Its the optimal size ball for the firearm that makes your interpretation confusing. The ball used in a 44 caliber revolver is 0.454" in diameter which is larger than the ball, 0.440" in diameter, used in a 45 caliber rifle.

 

[Eutycus]

Sorry had a medical situation to attend to. I was away from the forum for a while.My wife had a Drs. appointment. It was her turn today, (we are taking turns at this medical thing.) While " in the city" I stopped by a sporting goods store that deals in black powder. We measured the cylinder mouth and are pretty sure the 451s will work.I got some 454s on backorder though.

 

[Eutycus]

Thank you Grenadier1758 , Even with your explanation I'm still scratching my head. How did it get started "way back when"? Its become a industry standard for 45 balls to measure smaller than 44s , how did it come about? It almost seems like simple math was left out of the equation or something???

 

[hawkeye2]

The .45 rifle balls we commonly use are smaller to allow the use of a patch. Common rifle sizes are .440" & .445" but rifle bores differ and different thickness patches are used too so there are other size .45" balls in use.

 

[Eutycus]

Now that makes sense, the patches I mean.

 

[Zonie]

Thank you Grenadier1758 , Even with your explanation I'm still scratching my head. How did it get started "way back when"? Its become a industry standard for 45 balls to measure smaller than 44s , how did it come about? It almost seems like simple math was left out of the equation or something???

First off, the size of the guns barrel caliber is the same size as the bore of the gun. That is, a .44 caliber cap and ball pistols bore size is .440. A .45 caliber rifles bore is .450.

Because the bore size in a .44 caliber pistol is rifled the rifling groove size is larger, usually somewhere around .450.
Because the ball in a cap & ball pistol must engage the rifling, it needs to be larger than the bore size and preferably slightly larger than the rifling groove size.
To allow that to happen, the chambers in a cap & ball revolver are about the same size as the rifling grooves. (Although they should be the same or slightly larger than the groove size, most Italian replicas make their chambers slightly smaller than the rifling groove size.)

In order to keep the ball in the chamber and to form a tight seal with it the ball needs to be slightly larger than the chamber. That will allow the excess metal to shear off of the ball as it is rammed into the chamber making it a very snug "line to line" fit.
These cap & ball balls are therefore usually around .451 to .457 diameter.

Getting back to the .45 caliber rifle and any of the true muzzleloading single shot pistols. Because the ball needs to be rammed all the way down the bore, it should be smaller than the bore.
Because the smaller ball won't engage the rifling grooves or seal them off on the way down or back out, a cloth patch is used to do this job.
This allows the smaller .440 or .445 diameter patched ball to tightly engage the rifling and seal it with the patch doing the job.

 

[PluggedNickel]

On my Walker, I took the nipples off, was replacing them with after market SliXShot stainless steel nipples anyway. I had some .454" soft lead round balls, so I loaded one into an empty chamber, it fit well, but did not shave the small lead ring off. I only pressed the ball in so it was just below cylinder face. Used a hard wood dowel to push the ball back out. The .454" ball had swagged down to cylinder chamber size, but had one small spot that had not. I tried a .457" ball, both Hornady's BTW, and it gave me the slight lead ring I wanted to see for a good seal. I was pleased to find all my chambers were of equal diameters. I also pushed a soft lead ball through the barrel, to check for tight spots or restrictions in the bore. Uberti recommends .457" on the Walker as well. I think .454" is a good starting point for your ASM '51 Navy. As long as you get a however slight lead ring cut when loading, your golden! If not, bump up to .457"

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=20475.0;wap2http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=20475.0;wap2

 

[PluggedNickel]

Taken from ASM/Traditions Black Powder Revolvers Owner's Manual page 4

 

[Eutycus]

Thanks a page from tbe ASM owners Manuel ! it looks like I did indeed buy the wrong size when I purchased the 451s. I guess I'll just hold off until I can exchange them for 454s. I am still of the opinion that 451s will work due to the fact that the chambers measured 448.5. Or did they really? I'm sure there are a few ASM owners out there. What measurements do the rest of you get when putting the calipers to chamber mouths?

 

[bang]

I'm still at a loss here. Several shooters have told me that wheel weight lead is too hard. That it will damage the frame. Is it the loading or the shooting of hard lead that does the damage and how? Remember I said a loading press is going to be used and not the rammer.

For a patched ball not so much. In a pistol or any bullet that contacts the barrel it could damage the riflings and or entire barrel in general. Save yourself any doubt and use pure lead onlym

 

[bang]

Would a .451 ball work in a 44 cal ASM Navy? Would there be enough of a ring of lead shaved off to prevent a chain fire?

I too have an ASM 44 but walker.
Been shooting bp for long time but just noticed something. Measurement on 44 cylinder is less enough that the ball will catch riflings but not contact actual inside surface of barrel. No matter if 454 or 451. First time I've ever checked this. Never had any accuracy issues but does not seem rational. Was considering reaming cylinder to actual barrel measurement but thought since it came this way from manufacturer I would first look into it. Is this typical? Should it be corrected?

 

[bang]

Been shooting bp for long time but just noticed something. Measurement on 44 cylinder is less enough that the ball will catch riflings but not contact actual inside surface of barrel. First time I've ever checked this. Never had any accuracy issues but does not seem rational. Was considering reaming cylinder to actual barrel measurement but thought since it came this way from manufacturer I would first look into it. Is this typical? Should it be corrected?

 

[hawkeye2]

Been shooting bp for long time but just noticed something. Measurement on 44 cylinder is less enough that the ball will catch riflings but not contact actual inside surface of barrel. First time I've ever checked this. Never had any accuracy issues but does not seem rational. Was considering reaming cylinder to actual barrel measurement but thought since it came this way from manufacturer I would first look into it. Is this typical? Should it be corrected?

Yes, what you found is the norm rather than the exception. I usually check that and if I care about how the gun shoots I'll have the chambers reamed. I go to .456" to take a .457 ball and cut a new forcing cone. If you are satisfied with the accuracy as is leave well enough alone, if you are shooting matches and are near the top then have it done.

 

[Eutycus]

Now I'm really scratching my head. You answered my questions with questions of your own????

 

[bang]

Yes, what you found is the norm rather than the exception. I usually check that and if I care about how the gun shoots I'll have the chambers reamed. I go to .456" to take a .457 ball and cut a new forcing cone. If you are satisfied with the accuracy as is leave well enough alone, if you are shooting matches and are near the top then have it done.

Was my thoughts also. The difference on mine is really not very much. Just enough you would be able to see light at barrel max dia points against a bright light. When I noted the ball diameters the issue was after cylinder sizing. I'll clean out with 440 reamer and see if there is any positive change. If there is I might start brining it up a bit at a time but try to stay with a 454. Only shoot for fun and at 61 the old eyes are not good enough to worry about bulls on constant basis. One be chance goid enough. LOL.

 

[bang]

Was my thoughts also. The difference on mine is really not very much. Just enough you would be able to see light at barrel max dia points against a bright light. When I noted the ball diameters the issue was after cylinder sizing. I'll clean out with 440 reamer and see if there is any positive change. If there is I might start brining it up a bit at a time but try to stay with a 454. Only shoot for fun and at 61 the old eyes are not good enough to worry about bulls on constant basis. One be chance goid enough. LOL.

Update: I hone polished the chambers till a .451 ball slides in with light pressure. Light enough it will come out with light tapping of brass sight hammer. Now .454 will ram with ring but not as much ring as original. Think it will satisfy my shooting with out having to mold different size. It all checks out from random quanity of balls from my molds.

 

[Eutycus]

I too am at the age where my eyes are a factor in my shooting. I'd rather hear the gong ring than see a hole punched in the center of a paper target. I'm easy to please, as long as the gun shoots reasonably accurate and safe. I'm happy!