Are the Military Heritage brown besses any good?

[Shot deer]

I’d go with a Miruko (navy arms, Dixie Gun works). It’s a good reinactors gun and also doubles as a fine shooter with shot and a patched round ball. You’ll pay 600-800 for one on Gunbroker, Lodgewood MFG just sold one for around $700. And the parts are serviceable even though out of production. There are several gunsmiths that reproduce the parts and repair them pretty well. Jim Casco and Paul Ackerman are two I know of.

That is the one I will most likely go with then!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You can make Pedersoli Besses

look more authentic and function well with a bit of work and knowledge.

I don't fuss with Miruko Besses because they really need to be restocked and the India guns need new stocks and most of the hardware overhauled to make them look right. Moreover, the Miruko and Pedersoli Bess stocks are very straight making them difficult for many to shoot accurately. I cannot get my cheek down on the stock of either Bess. Fortunately, I can make whatever I want and a colonial militia musket, like the one below works best for me as a shooter because I can give the stock a bit more drop than found on most other Besses.

dave

 

[Shot deer]

Hi,
You can make Pedersoli Besses

look more authentic and function well with a bit of work and knowledge.

I don't fuss with Miruko Besses because they really need to be restocked and the India guns need new stocks and most of the hardware overhauled to make them look right. Moreover, the Miruko and Pedersoli Bess stocks are very straight making them difficult for many to shoot accurately. I cannot get my cheek down on the stock of either Bess. Fortunately, I can make whatever I want and a colonial militia musket, like the one below works best for me as a shooter because I can give the stock a bit more drop than found on most other Besses.

dave

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When you talk about using the musket for reenacting, you need to be more specific as to the time period for use. There is a big difference between the firearm used during the F&I War or the AWI and also who is using the gun.

No short Land Pattern King's Muskets during the F&I War. All will be Long Land pattern and should have a 46 inch long barrel. Yes, there is the mythology that rangers cut the Long Land Patterns down to a 42 inch barrel. So many muskets used during the F&I war were Belgian or Dutch Muskets built to the British Long Land Pattern configuration. In fact it is more likely to find a Dutch musket in the hands of a British soldier be the soldier a regular infantry or colonial militia. The colonial militia would have the oldest guns with significant wear, but still serviceable. The colonial service guns would be most like an India manufactured musket than anything else. Not to mention that in the Northeast there would possibly be French guns issued from the stores captured at Fort Louisburg.

The AWI would see Long Land Pattern muskets in the hands of colonial militia while the Short Land Pattern Second Model would be used by British regular infantry.

As was mentioned in another reply, you need to know what gun is preferred or used by the unit you want to participate with. It is also true that many more firearms may be acceptable than the one that is truly specific to the unit you will be reenacting. In my F&I War unit, we often have to look the other way when an enthusiastic recruit shows up with a second model musket that could only have been used in the AWI or a third model that would be more likely to have seen service against Napoleon at Waterloo.

When it comes to American made firearms for reenacting, you will be limited to kits from either Track of the Wolf, the Rifle Shoppe or cobbling together parts from a variety of makers of stocks, different makers for locks, and sources for hardware. Then it will take time to put the kit together.

 

[Shot deer]

When you talk about using the musket for reenacting, you need to be more specific as to the time period for use. There is a big difference between the firearm used during the F&I War or the AWI and also who is using the gun.

No short Land Pattern King's Muskets during the F&I War. All will be Long Land pattern and should have a 46 inch long barrel. Yes, there is the mythology that rangers cut the Long Land Patterns down to a 42 inch barrel. So many muskets used during the F&I war were Belgian or Dutch Muskets built to the British Long Land Pattern configuration. In fact it is more likely to find a Dutch musket in the hands of a British soldier be the soldier a regular infantry or colonial militia. The colonial militia would have the oldest guns with significant wear, but still serviceable. The colonial service guns would be most like an India manufactured musket than anything else. Not to mention that in the Northeast there would possibly be French guns issued from the stores captured at Fort Louisburg.

The AWI would see Long Land Pattern muskets in the hands of colonial militia while the Short Land Pattern Second Model would be used by British regular infantry.

As was mentioned in another reply, you need to know what gun is preferred or used by the unit you want to participate with. It is also true that many more firearms may be acceptable than the one that is truly specific to the unit you will be reenacting. In my F&I War unit, we often have to look the other way when an enthusiastic recruit shows up with a second model musket that could only have been used in the AWI or a third model that would be more likely to have seen service against Napoleon at Waterloo.

When it comes to American made firearms for reenacting, you will be limited to kits from either Track of the Wolf, the Rifle Shoppe or cobbling together parts from a variety of makers of stocks, different makers for locks, and sources for hardware. Then it will take time to put the kit together.

I would be doing AWI reenacting with the American militia, if I had a Bess. What musket would you suggest for American Continental Army reenacting?

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

American made muzzleloaders??? Unless you have the dollars for custom built where would you find any that are made in the USA?

I did a search on the net and came up with this American made Bess. I think they it is made from a TOTW kit.

 

[FlinterNick]

My ideal Brown Bess is a 1750/ 1756 long land which I’m working on parts for. It can be used for both FIW and AWI

 

[Shot deer]

My ideal Brown Bess is a 1750/ 1756 long land which I’m working on parts for. It can be used for both FIW and AWI

Pleaset post pictures when your finished building your Bess!

 

[FlinterNick]

Pleaset post pictures when your finished building your Bess!

I will just need a few more moths for the lock.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Yup you're correct, the Tower armories did specify walnut(as it should have been), however there were vast shortages due to shipping issues and the ongoing conflicts with France and its allies most of these cheaper Brown Besses made it to the British colonies in North America, Africa and Australia as surplus. Many were even sold cheaply to newly independent states in South America to fight the Spanish. The EIC Brown Besses used what wood was deemed suitable in surplus, much of it was not walnut but exotic woods, limited walnut was being shipped to the UK from its North American Colonies until 1809. Beech and Birch were just of the. many Eastern European woods that the British was able to import to India. Goldstein's book doesn't go into detail of the types of woods used by various contractors by the EIC however he does specify cheaper woods were used.

Hi Nick. I have checked with my knowledgeable members on another relevant forum. A check on Goldstein and Mobray suggests that walnut was the only wood used on these Board of Ordnance and Honourable East India Company Besses. There is reference to lighter or cheaper wood but this appears to refer to sap wood walnut. In this I only refer to the arms ordered by the British government for the army and those of the HEIC for the Indian army.

The quality of walnut used fell with the demands of war and wood with knots, sap wood and other defects were accepted when they would otherwise have been condemned and kiln drying was accepted when seasoned wood was not available. Once delivered to India the EIC muskets have been known to have been restocked in local woods when damaged or worn out, often after sale as surplus by the Company.

Other orders for other users, foreign military or civil, will be to their standards, some of which were scandalously low. The Swedes restocked some of theirs in birch. The Rajasthan State Armoury bought huge numbers of ex HEIC Bess iron parts which they incorporated into the own pattern State percussion bolster Bess conversions later which all used local woods and locally cast brass to the style of the Pattern 1853 rifle muskets. The original wood parts having been used as firewood and the brass melted down. Trade Bess style muskets were still being made much later in the 19th century and were very variable. Especially for the African and slave trades. I had a Rajasthan percussion converted Bess to State pattern which was excellent and is still in use. Briefly a Trade Bess which had excellent probably walnut wood still in the original black paint of the African trade. Well used and the touch hole had burned out it's replacement bushed touch hole leaving a large ragged hole which was too thin and corroded to fill or bush again. Black paint was used for the African Trade to protect the guns for the voyage (as Royal Navy Sea Service 'black' muskets were) and the customers had grown to expect a black finish. FWIW HEIC ones were shipped in melted mutton tallow for the longer voyage to India.

In short, British army Board of Ordnance and Indian Honourable East India Company Besses seem to be all walnut, if sometimes of lower quality. They were all made in Britain. Gunmakers preferred HEIC contracts as they were less fussy about patterns and paid faster.

 

[Straekat]

The subject of wood species used for making Bess stocks came up.

In 1709-1710, the winter weather in western Europe was so severe that the Rhine completely froze over, with severe socio-economic consequences. This is one of the causes of German Palatinate immigration to North America taking place immediately afterwards. One of the other, but less often reported consequences of the severe temperatures was the walnut trees in the British Isles were killed by the sustained temperature drop. The dead trees were logged, and new ones planted, however, a walnut takes circa 40 years to grow to maturity.

Faced with a shortage of walnut for military gunstocks, the British tried to buy walnut from the French, who promptly said "NON!". The British tried to buy walnut elsewhere and were squeezed out of buying supplies within the French sphere of influence.

Walnut production in England was not back to pre-1710 levels until roughly the 1740's/50s, or the Seven Years War/F&I era. Then, Britain faced arms shortages on more than one level, and wood was not the nation's only shortage. Arms from other nations were bought to help take up the slack.

Although the AWI limited British access to wood, there is a documented situation in which the RN sent landing parties ashore in (if memory serves correctly) to cut oak trees that were suitable for ship timbers needed in British naval yards. American walnut might have been something the British considered harvesting, however, they may have not have been able to carry through on the idea if they wanted to do so.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Nick. I have checked with my knowledgeable members on another relevant forum. A check on Goldstein and Mobray suggests that walnut was the only wood used on these Board of Ordnance and Honourable East India Company Besses. There is reference to lighter or cheaper wood but this appears to refer to sap wood walnut. In this I only refer to the arms ordered by the British government for the army and those of the HEIC for the Indian army.

The quality of walnut used fell with the demands of war and wood with knots, sap wood and other defects were accepted when they would otherwise have been condemned and kiln drying was accepted when seasoned wood was not available. Once delivered to India the EIC muskets have been known to have been restocked in local woods when damaged or worn out, often after sale as surplus by the Company.

Other orders for other users, foreign military or civil, will be to their standards, some of which were scandalously low. The Swedes restocked some of theirs in birch. The Rajasthan State Armoury bought huge numbers of ex HEIC Bess iron parts which they incorporated into the own pattern State percussion bolster Bess conversions later which all used local woods and locally cast brass to the style of the Pattern 1853 rifle muskets. The original wood parts having been used as firewood and the brass melted down. Trade Bess style muskets were still being made much later in the 19th century and were very variable. Especially for the African and slave trades. I had a Rajasthan percussion converted Bess to State pattern which was excellent and is still in use. Briefly a Trade Bess which had excellent probably walnut wood still in the original black paint of the African trade. Well used and the touch hole had burned out it's replacement bushed touch hole leaving a large ragged hole which was too thin and corroded to fill or bush again. Black paint was used for the African Trade to protect the guns for the voyage (as Royal Navy Sea Service 'black' muskets were) and the customers had grown to expect a black finish. FWIW HEIC ones were shipped in melted mutton tallow for the longer voyage to India.

In short, British army Board of Ordnance and Indian Honourable East India Company Besses seem to be all walnut, if sometimes of lower quality. They were all made in Britain. Gunmakers preferred HEIC contracts as they were less fussy about patterns and paid faster.

This is great information one of the reasons why I'm glad I joined this forum. Thank you. !

Most of my information regarding what wood was used was by antique gun collectors, and gunsmiths (Bosh, Mellot and Ravensheer's books on the Long Land Muskets). I agree and am sure that likely 95% of all British ordnance were stocked in Walnut. My knowledge on the other choices of wood when walnut was less available is only based on observations from collectors, its possible that many guns were also restocked at some point.

the IMA series muskets that were repros in the late 1890's I know were made with very cheap quality wood. Beech was not uncommon to see in many early muskets.

But I think you hit the nail on the head in a earlier post in regards to the commercial muskets being stocked with cheaper wood grades.

Nick

 

[Grenadier1758]

FlinterNick is right on for a Continental soldier during the AWI. A 1750/1756 Long Land Pattern Musket is very appropriate for an AWI interpretation.

 

[dave_person]

Pleaset post pictures when your finished building your Bess!

Hi,
I am curious, what pattern 1750/1756? The 1756 was the first pattern infantry musket using the new straight bottomed lock. Earlier patterns used the banana shaped lock. Big musket locks are straight forward to build but do not trust the witness marks on your lock plate casting. Determine the correct location of the tumbler hole, and go from there. The location of the sear hole is critical because if you get it wrong, the sear may fall back into the half cock notch when you fire.

dave

 

[Shot deer]

FlinterNick is right on for a Continental soldier during the AWI. A 1750/1756 Long Land Pattern Musket is very appropriate for an AWI interpretation.

This is what I will look for.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
I am curious, what pattern 1750/1756? The 1756 was the first pattern infantry musket using the new straight bottomed lock. Earlier patterns used the banana shaped lock. Big musket locks are straight forward to build but do not trust the witness marks on your lock plate casting. Determine the correct location of the tumbler hole, and go from there. The location of the sear hole is critical because if you get it wrong, the sear may fall back into the half cock notch when you fire.

dave

I’m working on a 1756 pattern with straight lock plate ; going to have it marked tower 1756. 46 inch barrel. Gona go for EU walnut.

I was contemplating a transitional pattern 1748/50 pattern marked farmer or willets; however there’s not much in the works in regard to this pattern and it being in colonies for militia or military use. It’s basically a 1740 musket with steel rammer nose cap and slimmer forearm. The Rifle Shoppe was going to prepare their 1740 musket with a smaller rammer channel for the steel rod .... but I balked at this idea.... just working on the 1756.

 

[Shot deer]

FlinterNick, have you ever seen a 44 inch barrel on a Bess?

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Long Land Patterns called for a 46" barrel.

The Short Land Pattern muskets had a 42" barrel length specification.

So, no 44" barrels.

If a musket was cut back because of excessive wear at the muzzle, the barrel was cut back 4".

 

[Shot deer]

Would they considered a musket "finished" if there was excessive wear at the muzzle and deep in the barrel?

 

[FlinterNick]

FlinterNick, have you ever seen a 44 inch barrel on a Bess?

No not 44, I've seen an original long land by Smith dated 1746 with a 45 inch .77 caliber barrel, Smith was an Irish contractor and Irish Brown Bess muskets were often different. But never a 44 inch.

46 inch barrels were cut down to 42 to redress the muzzle, cutting down from 46 to 44 was not a common practice.