Anyone heard of "Wagenhorst" PA Muzzleloader

[becke016]

Hi, folks. New to the forum and looking for some information on an old percussion muzzleloader that's been in our family for a long time. I didn't see a specific Muzzleloader Research sub-forum here, so if this is in the wrong place, I apologize in advance. Moderators, feel free to move it as you see fit.

Anyhow, the gun in question is in fair condition, though it's solid and original. The maker remains a mystery, though, and since it has some local provenance, and we have a tantalizing lead, we'd love to find out who made it.

My father bought the gun as a kid in PA, and some years later had some repair work done on it. The gunsmith told him at the time he thought the gun might be a "Wagenhorst" gun, but my father didn't follow up on it.

Fast forward about 40 years: My father recently took the gun to a respected muzzleloader appraiser/consultant, who said it was a fowler built in or near Lehigh County PA in the mid 19th century. Asked about the maker, he said he couldn't identify one and had no knowledge of a maker named "Wagenhorst".

A bit intrigued, I did a bit of sleuthing of my own, I found some reference to a "gun builder" Isaac Wagenhorst who lived in the early-to-mid-19th century in Eastern Berks County PA, very close to the Lehigh County line. Indeed, with a bit more sleuthing, I found a map from the same era showing the exact location of a "Wagenhorst Gun Factory".

This was all pretty exciting, but it certainly doesn't prove this gun is was built by Wagenhorst. Heck, it doesn't even prove Wagenhorst built complete guns (maybe he only made barrels?). Digging into the county archives further hasn't paid out yet, though I'm still digging.

No one I've contact has even heard of this builder (though I haven't contacted many people), so we know of no other Wagenhorsts to compare it to. Nor are there are there markings on the gun to tie it to any maker. Even if there were, we don't know what Wagenhorst's markings were.

So...any of y'all ever heard of Wagenhorst?

Here are a few pics...

 

[omarick1948]

MrBorland,... Sorry I can't tell you anything about you gun, but it does look in great need of oiling and a little bee's wax on the stock! Have you ever checked it to see if it is loaded?....Many an old gun has been found that way and sometimes the owner doesn't think to check!

Sorry, but just thinking of you and yours safety! :surrender:

Rick

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the forum.

I'm a bit confused.
A gunsmith suggested it was made by a Wagenhorst but you say there are no markings on the gun, "...Nor are there are there markings on the gun to tie it to any maker."?

Anyway, AMERICAN GUN MAKERS L.D. SATTERLEE AND ARCADI GLUCKMAN, Otto Ulbrich Co., Inc Buffalo, N.Y. 1945 says,

WAGENHORST--Unidentified. Flintlock, heavy barrel, match rifles.

This indicates that at least one gun was found with markings indicating that it was made by Wagenhorst.

Sorry I don't have any more information at the moment.

 

[becke016]

MrBorland,... Sorry I can't tell you anything about you gun, but it does look in great need of oiling and a little bee's wax on the stock! Have you ever checked it to see if it is loaded?....Many an old gun has been found that way and sometimes the owner doesn't think to check!

Thanks for the heads-up. I appreciate it. I've known for some years the gun's not loaded, but it's always worth the piece of mind to re-check. Yes, the gun could sure use a bit of TLC.

I'm a bit confused.
A gunsmith suggested it was made by a Wagenhorst but you say there are no markings on the gun, "...Nor are there are there markings on the gun to tie it to any maker."?

I can see how this would be confusing. I'll try to shed some light, but I admit to being a bit speculative:

As best I can tell, it wasn't unusual for early PA German gunmakers to leave their guns unmarked, likely out of religious humility or an effort to avoid getting hammered on excessive taxes (more common in colonial days). Even so, local gunmakers tended to share styles and individual makers developed their own sub-style. For example, when my father had this gun recently inspected and appraised, the appraiser recognized the profile of the stock (and other elements) as consistent with early-to-mid 19th century fowlers made in the Lehigh Valley, PA area. Some 40 years ago, however, the gunsmith (a Lehigh Valley native) seemed to have recognize the gun even more precisely and thought it was a Wagenhorst. It could be that there simply weren't that many of them around at any point, and any remaining knowledge of the gunmaker disappeared in the last 40 years.

Anyway, AMERICAN GUN MAKERS L.D. SATTERLEE AND ARCADI GLUCKMAN, Otto Ulbrich Co., Inc Buffalo, N.Y. 1945 says,

WAGENHORST--Unidentified. Flintlock, heavy barrel, match rifles.

This indicates that at least one gun was found with markings indicating that it was made by Wagenhorst.

This is a terrific little nugget. Thanks.

Someone on another forum claimed to have found his name on the US patent files, but the files only mentioned he was a gunmaker. I've scoured the on-line patent searches, but mid-19th century searches are difficult if you only know the inventor, so I haven't been able to corroborate this. A patent would be a terrific little find, as it would undoubtedly describe a unique and identifiable feature of his guns. OTOH, a simple PA German gunmaker (who's fallen into obscurity, even among expert) filing a patent somehow seems unlikely to me. Still, it's worth following up.

At any rate, the data would seem to suggest that Wagenhorst may be a re-discovered bona fide PA gun maker, rather than a hobbyist.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There are two primary old maps of Berks County with some detail. One from 1860 and another from about 15 years later., They are available township by township on one of the Berks Genealogy sites or through the Pa Gen web. I was able to find where several of my ancestors lived on those maps. If you can locate, the factory on one of those maps, the modern Berks County Assessment office site search can tell you who owns the property now. Once you have that, the owner may know something of the history. Another place to look is the Pa Gen web and archives search of the Pa Archives. I have found a great many obituaries of relatives from the 1800's and early 1900's that tells where they worked, their trade etc. Somewhat harder to find are old tax records. They exist, they are just harder to find.

What township was the factory in?
I have some connections over that way and may know somebody that knows somebody etc.

Another place to check is with Mr. hornberger, the curator of the Barks County Rifle exhibit at the Berks County Historical Society. There is currently an exhibit of about 60 guns made in Berks County. It ends Feb 27. It was supposed o cover guns through 1750 to 1900.

Another place to check is the old histories. In PA almost every county had a rather detailed book about the history of the county. They were usually published by subscription. (copies sold in advance of printing) The authors spent alot of time with information about businesses and important families and persons in each township. Most were written and published around 1880 to 1910. Some are available on line, some only at the local historical societies. For instance the one for Carbon County is available on-line, same for Bucks County. I don't know about the one for Berks County.

last, check to see when the township was incorporated. Citizens usually publish histories of the township on the anniversaies. My Township in York County, just had it's 225th and a group of older citizens published a detailed history of the township, complete with very old pictures of buildings etc. Some of the buildings had burned down in the early 1900's, You may even find a picture.

Now what does this have to do with the gun? Simple, the more information you have about the builder and his family, the place etc., the more likely you will find references to other guns to compare. If indeed you can find a marked gun that is so similar that an expert confirms your maker, all the information adds significantly to the value of the gun. (I have a gun built by a famous target shooter gunsmith, world champion of the early 1900's. I have a notebook with several things, picture of the gun smith, a picture of his shop, copies of the listing of his world records, two pictures of other guns he made, and a biography of the gun smith. I even ordered a copy of his obituary. I recently got a lead on a possible picture of him with a trophy at a world championship. Having the extra information easily doubled the value of the gun itself. What I have are all photocopies (on better quality paper, but still photocopies)

If you have ever watched Antiques Road Show, you would know that information about a piece increases the value. Do the same for your gun.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

From an 1876 census of Kutztown, compiled and written by James Wagenhorst:

Wagenhorst Isaac 59 Longswamp Tsp. Bks. Co. Pa. Carman
Wagenhorst Roslinda 39 Longswamp Tsp. Bks. Co. Pa.
Wagenhorst Jas. F. 21 Greenwich Tsp. " " " Agent
Wagenhorst Allen 15 Maxatawny " " " "
Wagenhorst Louisa 42 Maxatawny Tsp. Bks. Co. Pa. Tinware and Stoves
Wagenhorst Theophilus R. 19 Richmond " " " " Tinsmith
Wagenhorst Chas. M. 17 " " " " "
Wagenhorst Ella J. 15 " " " " "
Wagenhorst Rosa Ann 6 " " " " "
Wagenhorst John 2 Kutztown " " "
Wagenhorst Palena 17 Kutztown Bks. Co. Pa. Milliner


I also found evidence of an Elwood Wagenhorst who had been a baseball player of some fame. Born in 1863 in Kutztown.

You may want to check records of earlier census results. I ran a brief check with the Mormon Genealogy site, which had no listing for Isaac Wagenhorst that I could find.

 

[becke016]

Great information, Zimmerstutzen. I'll follow up on your suggestions.

I'm guessing Isaac Wagenhorst was the gun/barrel maker. For one thing, his birthday (1817) would be about right, and the few connections I've seen between a Wagenhorst being a gun builder have been in reference to Isaac.

Finally, there's the map. Isaac was born in Longswamp Twnsp, but moved at a young age to Greenwich Twnsp. I managed to find a map of Greenwich Twnsp in 1860 (see link). If you click on it to enlarge it, and look along the Maxatawny Twnsp border, you'll see 2 farms, "Is and Jms Wagenhorst" (Isaac and James, presumably), and across the street is marked "Gun Barrel Fact." This cross street is now the intersection of Gun Club Rd & Hottenstein Rd, north of Rte 222.

Again, this would suggest Wagenhorst made barrels, not necessarily the entire gun, and perhaps it was the barrel, not the gun, that the gunsmith recognized 40-some years ago. This would be something interesting to follow-up on by digging through the county archives, and, ultimately finding a marked Wagenhorst to compare to, if possible. Unfortunately, I'm out of state, and will have to do much of this remotely.

Thanks again
http://ancestortracks.com/Berks Co. maps/Berks_Greenwich_1860.jpg

 

[Tumblernotch]

There is a possibility that if the gun is not marked "Wagenhorst", it was sold by store owned by a Wagenhorst and remembered as such. The list above shows a Louisa Wagenhorst who operated a store that sold tinware and stoves. This indicates a hardware store and they sold a lot of firearms back in those days. I did some searching and I believe that Louisa's husband was John Wagenhorst. I also believe that they were connected to the Wagenhorst family who had a tinsmith shop in that area for many years. I didn't see anything about gun or gunbarrel making, but it might not hurt to look.

I looked in my "Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle" book by Kaufmann that covered known PA rifle makers, but Wagenhorst is not listed.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Mr. Borland, I live about 60 miles from there, however, my father's family extends back to the Angstadt family of Gunsmiths from that area. I went through there on business last week and actually drove through Kutztown on my way to Allentown. If you have the corner and streets nailed down, you can check the aerial photos from Mapquest or Terra server and see if there is any structure currently there. (I did this and found the stone house where my great great grandfather lived in 1876) The US census records going back also give the occupations of residents. In 1876 Isaac was listed as a Carman (I assume railroad occupation) But by this time every body was switching over to cheap breechloaders. He may have gone out of the gun business by then. I'd check the 1850 and 1860 census records. Partial records are available at some web sites for free, but you may have to pay Ancestry.com.

Oddly, at the Pa Gen Web Archives, I found no reference to an obituary or estate. Nor was there a listing at the Mormon Genealogy site for any Isaac Wagenhorst or Wagonhorst.

At the same location, you found that map, there is a later black and white atlas from 1876 which may shed some light on things.

I'm not sure who (or where) in Berk's County may have the old tax records, assessments and inventories.

 

I noticed some letters on the lock in the picture you posted
It look like the letters "M and an R" and maybe another letter proceeding them . There also looks like the letters "D and an S", that are much smaller than the M and the R, under them . Can you make them out on the lock in person?

 

Photo-bucket hasn't been working correctly the past few days and I been trying to post the photo of the lock to show where I noticed the letters on the lock. Let me see if this will work. if not I'm sorry and will keep trying to get it posted when photo-bucket works correctly again.

Ok it still isn't working so, look at the middle on the bottom edge of the lock and see if you can find the letters I am refering to.

 

[McCoy1966]

Anyone sharing information for confirmation of Wagenhorst rifle or barrel, I've info.

 

[JCKelly]

WAGONHURST, JOHN unlocated. percussion fullstock.
So says AMERICAN GUNSMITHS, by Frank M, Sellers, on page 346.

All I know.