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Bucky

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"иррши"
Well, this is an interesting thread..... I got on an online Russian keyboard and typed in the above. That's what it looked like to me anyway. Then I choose a google translator. The answer came up " tajik" in English Then I looked up "tajik" and found that it is an ethnic group in the country of, and around,...........Tajikstan.............a country to the NE of Afghanistan, very mountainous and rugged.
Of course, I made a two assumptions here.1. That the word is Russian 2. That I identified the characters correctly. But, that gun looks like it would be used in that region doesn't it?
P.S. this is what retirement allows me to do, l.o.l
After trying to dig deeper online, I can't say the translation of the marking is "tajik", I think the translator detected the Tajik language, which uses a form of cyrillic, Russian. So I say this markng has to do with Tajikistan, but not sure of its literal translation. Well, that's my input on the topic, if anyone remembers what it was.
 

Kozmo

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Do we have a date range for this flintlock that the OP posted? What is interesting about Russian made arms is that they would be Tula or Ishevsk marked by the 1700s forward.
Bucky's input is something I hadn't considered. The Russians didn't conquer central Asia until the later 1800s so I wonder why Cyrillic would be used on this lock if made locally. If bought from the Russian empire, I would expect to see Tula marked.
I'm still guessing this is from Ukraine and specifically a Cossack firearm. Just a wild guess though.
 

Rudyard

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Dear Toot .Well 'Ive never heard it called that .We learn something every day.
Regards Rudyard
 

TFoley

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Hi there, Toot - I just reached out and pulled it off the internetty - thousands of pics like that. :) @Rudyard - Sir, you amaze me with your comment, given your expertise and history in both building and rebuilding guns more or less like this. The term watertable is said to derive from the necessity to start every construction, be it ship or house, from a perfectly level plane. The large flat surfaces of an unmentionable shotgun provide an ideal location for the application of all the proof and ID data required in law. Never having seen an open and taken apart US-made shotgun of any kind, I don't know if they do this kind of thing over there, where there is no legal requirement for proofing, so perhaps if anyone here has one of those new-fangled guns they could advise me by PM.
 
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TFoley

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After trying to dig deeper online, I can't say the translation of the marking is "tajik", I think the translator detected the Tajik language, which uses a form of cyrillic, Russian. So I say this markng has to do with Tajikistan, but not sure of its literal translation. Well, that's my input on the topic, if anyone remembers what it was.
A lot of 'if's' here, but IF the word actually translates as Tadzhik/Tajik, then all we need do is find a handy Tajik speaker. As a fluent Russian speaker, the transliteration of the lettering makes 'irrshi'...it's gibberish in Russian, and does not follow grammar rules used in Cyrillic, either.
 

Bucky

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Do we have a date range for this flintlock that the OP posted? What is interesting about Russian made arms is that they would be Tula or Ishevsk marked by the 1700s forward.
Bucky's input is something I hadn't considered. The Russians didn't conquer central Asia until the later 1800s so I wonder why Cyrillic would be used on this lock if made locally. If bought from the Russian empire, I would expect to see Tula marked.
I'm still guessing this is from Ukraine and specifically a Cossack firearm. Just a wild guess though.
Good points.... but....I believe this was a firearm that was around for a very long time but stamped much later and not as a maker's mark but an identifying mark. Primitive firearms are still in use today by tribesmen in that part of the world. Also, Tajikistan not only came under Russian dominance but became a soviet republic in 1929.
 

TFoley

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Good points.... but....I believe this was a firearm that was around for a very long time but stamped much later and not as a maker's mark but an identifying mark. Primitive firearms are still in use today by tribesmen in that part of the world. Also, Tajikistan not only came under Russian dominance but became a soviet republic in 1929.
Not stamped, chiselled with a crude tool.
 

rickystl

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Maybe I can add a little more here. The OP's plain, but solid functioning pistol was likely made at one of the many gun making centers in the Balkans. Probably sometime during the first half of the 19th Century. Often, certain styles of decoration can pinpoint a closer location. Other times not. The decorated on mine tends to favor a Ottoman/Turk origin. Or made for a customer from that area. But it could have been assembled elsewhere. Decoration on these guns tends to be done in a generic fashion so as not to offend any religious sensibilities, thereby offering a potential sale to a wider variety of perspective customers. Many of the guns from these regions have no markings at all. This is so a particular gun couldn't be traced back to a specific gun shop, as the guns were sold to both friend and foe alike.
Spurious type marks would serve the same purpose. For the most part, you can't get too specific in dating these guns. The styles of guns - and flintlocks in general - were in regular use up to about 1880 with little if any change. This is also the likely reason so many original examples still exist today. What's especially curious is that for these guns to have be made and used over such a long period that so little historical documentation is left to study. There were actually entire towns and villages where most of the population was devoted to arms making, usually under contract with the Ottoman Empire. Of course, illiteracy probably had a lot to do with the lack of records.

Rick
 

Rudyard

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Dear T. Not SO amazeing , first Ive heard of it but that dosn't mean much . '.Water table' dos'nt make sense . Toot I can understand but you are familiar with water table?.
Wonder what Felt Wad wuold say?. Dosn't faze me any . Pobodys Nerfect .In fact I used to be quite concieted before I became perfect.
Cheers Rudyard
 

TFoley

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Yep, I can just see those primitive tribesman a'whoopin' and a 'hollerin' around here...................... :)

1611691073725.png

1611691390289.png
 

TFoley

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Dear T. Not SO amazeing , first Ive heard of it but that dosn't mean much . '.Water table' dos'nt make sense . Toot I can understand but you are familiar with water table?.
Wonder what Felt Wad wuold say?. Dosn't faze me any . Pobodys Nerfect .In fact I used to be quite concieted before I became perfect.
Cheers Rudyard
[/QUOTE]

Behold, the term used in descriptions - in English - of all guns that open on a hinge - single or double barrel - to expose this flat surface.

1611691856849.png


Watertable - The top of the bar of the action, the flat projection on the front of the receiver of a side-by-side gun, perpendicular to the standing breech. The cocking arms, hingepin and locking bolts are typically mounted inside the bar, below the watertable. The Table, or the Action Flat.
 

toot

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WOW!! we finally got the message out, in regards to the term, WATER TABLE! I guess that I am old school-76+++, and back in the day, my day it was a common term when the then old timers that I listened to used the term a lot. OH WELL.
 

Rudyard

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Since I don't make the new patent breach loaders I neither know nor care what there called .. Water Table pertains more to underground levels of water. Of course' Back your day ' ( We are the same age Toot ). It might be normal where you live. but confess I have never come across the term .Mr Foley's post dosnt warrant a response .
Cheers Rudyard
 

Zonie

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Let's get back to discussing the Blunderbuss that started this thread or, I'll close this topic.
 

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