Antique Cannon Construction - Sage Advice Needed

[DavidG.H.]

Howdy fellas and gals! I am interested in purchasing an authentic antique muzzleloading brass or bronze signal cannon for my man-cave, as I've never bought one before, but always admired them!

Could you give me some tips on what to look in terms of authentic construction, in an authentic Eighteenth or Nineteenth Century brass or bronze signal cannon?

For example, I have read that the authentic antique ones will have a core of iron, and so they will be somewhat magnetic, even if they are brass or bronze.

Also I read that the very old ones were actually cast in two pieces and then put together, so you can see a Seam running across them. In other words, if there is a Seam on the cannon, you are assured of having a good one that's 200 years old!

Are these correct assumptions? Any other things to look for?

Gratefully yours,

David

 

[Rudyard]

I cant emagine any cannon made of two joined halves the Mould might be that way & casr with a core in some cases nor heard of any with iron cores maybe replica ones have & some or just a strong core with cement to form the right shape Iv'e fired an Iron gunnade on 'Carronade' lines 9 ponder typical ships gun no trace of moulding seen. I wish you success in finding a sutiable tube but I think you will be lucky to come across any such .Suggest get Copies of ' The Artillery man' a US publication . Rudyard

 

[DavidG.H.]

Rudyard, no, not true. While some cannons were cast as one piece, and then drilled out, many others were cast in two pieces, and then joined together. The YouTube video below explains this two piece casting:



Regarding the iron core in the bore, from what I understand that was done in order to harden the cannon.

Are there other knowledgeable folks on this Forum who know about this?

 

[Treestalker]

Buy only a modern tube from a reputable dealer like South Bend Replicas which has the barrel cast solid, drilled, and lined with a steel liner which has been fitted and welded with a steel plug. Get a copy of the More Complete Cannoneer, by Matt Switlik.

 

[Rich44]

Rudyard is correct.
Possibly you are confusing the existence of a seam on the casted part as proof there are two pieces of metal put together. But I assure you that the seam is coming from the joint where each half of the casting mold joins together. Half the cannon shape is on one side of the mold and the other half on the other side and when put together you have the complete cannon shape for the molten metal to be poured into. Casting iron or brass is a real art which would cover more than one book of learning.

If you are having trouble recognizing this than you need to do some research. Sorry, but you seem to come across like a person that has the money but lacking the knowledge on what to do with it, looking for an easy way forward.

 

[hawkeye2]

Rudyard, no, not true. While some cannons were cast as one piece, and then drilled out, many others were cast in two pieces, and then joined together. The YouTube video below explains this two piece casting:



Regarding the iron core in the bore, from what I understand that was done in order to harden the cannon.

Are there other knowledgeable folks on this Forum who know about this?

The video does not state the cannon was cast in 2 pieces and joined together. What it does say is that the mold was a 2 part mold (similar to our bullet molds). The cannon was cast in one piece and the visible "seam" is the parting line of the mold halves.

 

[2 shots]

seems he is asking if he is correct, not saying he is. i think new guys should be nice to new guys

 

[DavidG.H.]

Rudyard is correct.
Possibly you are confusing the existence of a seam on the casted part as proof there are two pieces of metal put together. But I assure you that the seam is coming from the joint where each half of the casting mold joins together. Half the cannon shape is on one side of the mold and the other half on the other side and when put together you have the complete cannon shape for the molten metal to be poured into. Casting iron or brass is a real art which would cover more than one book of learning.

If you are having trouble recognizing this than you need to do some research. Sorry, but you seem to come across like a person that has the money but lacking the knowledge on what to do with it, looking for an easy way forward.

Okay, so looks like I misunderstood the process! So, what you're saying is that the metal was poured into a two piece mold, and then the cannon was taken out in one piece, and the seams are there because of the two molds, and not because two pieces of metal were joined together? If that's what you mean, I can understand that.

I kind of wish you would have stopped there, as regarding the second half of your post, well, I'm kind of baffled as to how I could strike you as a person with money (just because I want to buy a signal cannon?) and what the heck difference that has to do with anything? And then the rest of your post about "looking for an easy way forward" is also not helpful... Is this a forum just for people to come in and show-off their new toy, or also one for new folks to learn something? Am I "looking for an easy way forward" just because I'm seeking advice from other folks?

So, I appreciate the first part of your post, which was helpful, but not the rest, where it was not. Not trying to start a flame war, just being a straight shooter.

 

[DavidG.H.]

The video does not state the cannon was cast in 2 pieces and joined together. What it does say is that the mold was a 2 part mold (similar to our bullet molds). The cannon was cast in one piece and the visible "seam" is the parting line of the mold halves.

Yes, I see that now! Looks like I misunderstood what he was saying in the video, and I am very happy to stand corrected! Thanks for letting me know!

 

[JeffG]

First of all David, welcome to the board!!

I understand your attraction to the old originals! Most hobbyists have gravitated to modern barrels because of safety and cost.
Any original brass or bronze barrel with or without a core is suspect. Age tends to go hand in hand with neglect, and unknown construction quality. A barrel that has lasted more than a man's life could be wrought with problems, pardon the pun. Inspection before purchase, and knowledge of what to look for is paramount! Fakes and imported imposters are pretty common.
The better barrels, (quality and safety) are cast iron, drilled, and a steel sleeve and welded steel plug. South Bend Replicas, and other makes standardized this construction. Some of the smaller tubes can be made out of turned steel, and are very strong.

Finding a safe, original barrel, much less one made of gun bronze is more of a quest for experts with a substantial budget, and knowledge.
Sailing/yachting clubs might be a good place to search, and a lot of Lyle line throwing guns have survived in private hands. Good luck, and check back if you hit a snag or find your grail!
JeffG

cannon sales
Signal cannon

 

[Brazos John]

Welcome to the forum. Lots of sages here.
Keep us posted with photos of your project. We always want to see what other shooters buy or build.
Make lots of smoke!

 

[davec2]

DavidGH,

Cannons have been made by all sorts of methods since their introduction in Europe in the middle ages. However, in regard to cast cannons (bronze or iron) there were two primary methods used. Early on a wooden pattern was used to start and then an iron frame and mud / clay, two part mold was made by forming it around the wooden pattern. The two halves of the mold were then opened and the wooden pattern removed. Originally, a solid core of the same clay was made and placed in the center of the mold. The intent was to cast the cannon with a bore in place (once the mud/clay core was removed.) The now hollow mold with the core in it was then put back together and buried in a pit in the ground. This would support the weight of the metal that would be poured into the mold....sometimes many tons of it. This method however produced inferior cannon barrels. As molted iron or bronze cools, it shrinks. When attempting to cast a cored cannon, the metal solidifies between the inner and outer walls of the barrel casting and the shrinkage area, often resulting in porosity, ended up between the two walls where it was not visible but where it significantly weakened the casting. By the 1600s, barrels were cast solid in the same two piece mold but without any attempt to cast in a core. The shrinkage in the casting was then in the very center of the barrel which was subsequently drilled out to make the bore. This removed the most suspect portion of the casting when the bore was drilled and also allowed the interior of the casting to be inspected for cracks or porosity. This resulted in a far superior barrel casting.

In all cases the barrels were cast in a two piece mold (but all in one piece) and the castings often showed the "mold line" if they were not subsequently finished well. However most of the original barrels I have inspected were finished very well, including lathe turning, which removed all evidence of the mold lines. So most original barrels show no indication of a mold line. It is important to note that artillery represented a HUGE investment by any government, king, etc., and the people who cast the guns were in a special class of artisans. As such the casters were very meticulous about finishing the gun barrels often spending a great deal of time in finishing the surfaces, engraving, and chasing designs on them. The picture below of an original gun barrel is an example. The men who cast this gun were not likely to leave unfinished mold lines on it.

There are many great books about cannon (Artillery Through the Ages, Round Shot and Rammers, etc.). They would be a huge help to you in your search. Also if you can find a South Bend Replica catalog from the 1990s (the last time it was published I believe), it is a wealth of information and has loads of pictures of all types of original cannon barrels. I am traveling at the moment but when I get home I will post a series of close up pictures I have of Spanish, English, French, and American cannon barrels. I graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1976 and the entire campus is covered with original cannon from the 17th century onward.

Best,

David Crisalli

 

[Dude]

Gorgeous barrel, David!

I've got a question. In the video, the guy says cannon barrels were made differently before 1858, but I can't understand what he said - something C.......

Any of you know what he's talking about?

After 1858 they used the two piece mold - at least, according to him.

Interesting topic!

 

[davec2]

Two piece molds had been used for centuries before 1858. Most of the field guns made and used during the US Civil War were cast guns. However about that time cannon began to be manufactured with shrunk on wrought iron reinforcements around the breach area. Look up Parrot and Dahlgren guns and you can find a lot of good information.
I’m not sure what the fellow in the video is talking about.

 

[DavidG.H.]

Thank you Jeff for welcoming me in, and thanks to everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the feedback, and especially David Crisalli's excellent description of the cannon casting method in years gone by, that really hit the spot for me and thank you for taking the time to explain things well.

With respect to Dude's question about the guy in the video, from what I understand, he was referring to the "Pre Rodman" style of cannon casting, which was before 1858. I can only assume (from Googling the name) that he's referring to Thomas Jackson Rodman, who invented the Rodman gun in 1858.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodman_gun
My take on the video guy, is that he's apparently saying that cannons made before 1858 (i.e. before the "Rodman Style") show these seams on them, and that after 1858, there are no seams. That could be true, but it doesn't strike me as right to take that as an absolute, because I've seen many cannons that I know are early, and have no seams (and not because I know something about the subject). Also as David Crisalli' explained, cannon makers often took their time and finished these surfaces, essentially eliminating the seams.

Having said all that, I went through many photos of antique cannons (small, signal ones) and I do see seams on some of them, and I don't see seams on others. That's why I wanted to get more opinions on the subject. I was also intrigued by why some antique brass or bronze cannons would be magnetic, and others non-magnetic, and I'm learning that even some antique bronze or brass cannons simply had some iron inside the melted metal, enough for the cannon to end up being slightly magnetic, and also that some antique cannons had an internal "sleeve" of iron, to make them stronger. I hope I'm characterizing this correctly, but please steps in and correct me if I'm not.

My interest is only in antique cannons, and to be honest, I don't especially want to shoot them off. I think if I did, my neighbors would have a terrific freak fest, and would call every cop in the town on me! So, I hope to settle for appreciating the beauty of a small (fairly inexpensive) brass or bronze signal cannon!

 

[Michael Ford]

This is my miniature cannon which I shoot in MLAGB competitions. I have a naval carriage which the barrel original came with but wanting to enter more comps I made the artillery carriage which is a model of an 18/19c British Napoleonic 12lb cannon. .69cal with 1.1/2" lubed patch and 65gns of Vesuvit powder, my best score to date 95/100 on a PL7 target at 25mts. I believe Traditions in US sell the same products made by Ardesse in Spain?

 

[zulu]

How the barrel is made.

 

[Coot]

Thank you Jeff for welcoming me in, and thanks to everyone for weighing in, I really appreciate the feedback, and especially David Crisalli's excellent description of the cannon casting method in years gone by, that really hit the spot for me and thank you for taking the time to explain things well.

With respect to Dude's question about the guy in the video, from what I understand, he was referring to the "Pre Rodman" style of cannon casting, which was before 1858. I can only assume (from Googling the name) that he's referring to Thomas Jackson Rodman, who invented the Rodman gun in 1858.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodman_gun
My take on the video guy, is that he's apparently saying that cannons made before 1858 (i.e. before the "Rodman Style") show these seams on them, and that after 1858, there are no seams. That could be true, but it doesn't strike me as right to take that as an absolute, because I've seen many cannons that I know are early, and have no seams (and not because I know something about the subject). Also as David Crisalli' explained, cannon makers often took their time and finished these surfaces, essentially eliminating the seams.

Having said all that, I went through many photos of antique cannons (small, signal ones) and I do see seams on some of them, and I don't see seams on others. That's why I wanted to get more opinions on the subject. I was also intrigued by why some antique brass or bronze cannons would be magnetic, and others non-magnetic, and I'm learning that even some antique bronze or brass cannons simply had some iron inside the melted metal, enough for the cannon to end up being slightly magnetic, and also that some antique cannons had an internal "sleeve" of iron, to make them stronger. I hope I'm characterizing this correctly, but please steps in and correct me if I'm not.

My interest is only in antique cannons, and to be honest, I don't especially want to shoot them off. I think if I did, my neighbors would have a terrific freak fest, and would call every cop in the town on me! So, I hope to settle for appreciating the beauty of a small (fairly inexpensive) brass or bronze signal cannon!

Morphy Auctions just sold four bronze signal cannons. Three were breech loading using 10 or 12 gauge black powder blanks. One was a muzzle loader. I believe they went from $1200 to $3000.

 

[DavidG.H.]

How the barrel is made.

Excellent video Zulu, thank you so much for posting it!

 

[DavidG.H.]

Morphy Auctions just sold four bronze signal cannons. Three were breech loading using 10 or 12 gauge black powder blanks. One was a muzzle loader. I believe they went from $1200 to $3000.

Morphy Auctions just sold four bronze signal cannons. Three were breech loading using 10 or 12 gauge black powder blanks. One was a muzzle loader. I believe they went from $1200 to $3000.

Hi Coot, thanks for pointing them out. I did see them. Only in a couple out of maybe 10 in the most recent auction did the auctioneer state that they were antique. The antique ones sold for really high prices!