Another quirky load for dense patterns

[Skychief]

Maybe I am living in the 'Twilight Zone'.

I've found another load that is rarely, if ever mentioned for dense turkey/squirrel loads.

I shot my fowling piece today, experimenting with some possible squirrel combinations.

Before starting, I looked for and found that Spence wrote that he has recently been using 60 grains of 3f and about an ounce of shot for his squirrel hunting.

Reading that, I used those measures of powder and shot, but, juggled components.

I had prepared some 1/2" cushion wads by soaking them with a lard/beeswax lube of my own making.

The most common loading (powder-hard card-cushion wad-shotload-overshot card), left something to be desired because of pattern thinness.

I juggled the cards and wads this way and that.

4 years ago, I wrote of a different smoothbore that shot real dense patterns when loaded with a lubricated wad on top of the shot.

Lightning struck twice this evening.

With only a hard card separating the powder and shot, I placed a full cushion wad on top of the shot and was rewarded with outstanding patterns! :thumbsup:

They were so good that, I looked through other patterns that I have shot from this past Spring to years ago.

This new load shot patterns denser than others from the same gun using as much as 1 5/8 ounces of shot, but not loaded with a cushion wad atop the shot.

I used 4 & 5 shot that was mixed today. I plan to try some 6 shot in the same loading just to learn what it will do.

I think that I have found my squirrel load for this Fall, and possibly, next Springs turkey load.

Had to share another of my quirky, "reversed" loads with you all.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[BrownBear]

Heck, that'll never work! Everyone KNOWS that those fiber wads blow patterns, especially those that have never tried them. :rotf:

Well done, and thanks for this. Looking forward to trying it.

 

[Alden]

Backwardsish indeed, but if it works...

 

[Skychief]

Backwardsish indeed, but if it works...

:idunno: I agree Alden.

 

[azmntman]

I will try anything once! Thanks for sharing!

I recall when I first got my 10GA dbl pedersoli I was green and loaded backwards using the thin card over powder and the thick wad over shot (thinking it needed that to keep shot in). It was great at patterns and I shot it that way till I sold it (cuz it was shooting right right and left left and I didnt know bout filing the crown) :shake:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Very interesting. I will also try it.

Thanks.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have come across a reference more than once that was written by a man, possibly by the name of Markham, who recommended using an inch and a half or so piece of heavy paper folded in two as an overpowder wad and I think the same wad over the shot.
This was mentioned in a treatise published in the early to mid 1700's in England on the proper loading and shooting of fowling pieces.
I have the reference around here somewhere, but cannot put my hands on it right now. It can probably found on the internet sooner nowadays anyway.
V. M. Starr of percussion double shotgun fame also recommended a single thin overshot wad over the powder and the same over the shot.
My theory is that the added gas leakage of a thinner overpowder wad causes the overshot wad to separate from the top of the shot column at ignition, causing it to be blown well clear of the path of the shot column long before ( relatively speaking ) the shot leaves the muzzle and therefore cannot disrupt the pattern before it gets out of the way.

 

[Billnpatti]

That is amazing. I would never have thought it would work based on my experiences. My expectation would have been that the thick wad positioned as you did in front of the shot would have caused the shot pattern to be doughnut shaped by the shot having to pass around the slower moving wad. Obviously, that's not what happens. Well, you just can't argue with success. :hatsoff:

 

[BrownBear]

Fiber wads defy science. They'll blow right up through a pattern from behind, but they politely move out of the way when loaded on top. :rotf:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Fiber wads defy science. They'll blow right up through a pattern from behind, but they politely move out of the way when loaded on top. :rotf:

Yep. That is the reason why a card over powder, THEN the wad is the reccomended procedure.

 

[BrownBear]

So do I need a card under the wad when I load it on top of the shot? :blah:

 

[Skychief]

Just some more information.

I was shooting at 8 1/2" X 11" sheets of paper at 20 yards backed by sheets of newspaper.

The sheets of paper had an average of 78 pieces of shot in them. Remember that this average was for 1 ounce loads using mixed 4's and 5's.

In looking at some past sheets of paper that I used to pattern smoothbores, several heavy loads (1 5/8 ounce and similar), shot with #6 shot didn't do so well. Many of those patterns had 50-60 holes in them, some less. Again, that was with heavier shot charges and smaller shot to boot!

I'm anxious to try some more experimenting.

To those of you that said you'd try similar "reverse loads", I hope that you will and let us know your findings please!

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Dausener]

Thanks for the info. I hope to try it soon also. :v

 

[Zonie]

Could it be that the thick wads are actually blowing up?

If they did, I can see how the shot behind it would pass thru the haze of fiber particles.

I guess the only way to know is to find the wad after it's been fired and that would be worse than looking for the needle in the haystack.

Of course, if the wad did blow up, there wouldn't be anything to find.
At least the needle is shiny. :hmm:

 

[Skychief]

Some of the shots that I took showed the wad penetrating the target.

Four years ago with a twelve gauge, I had several wads hitting the target as well.

I'll go ahead and climb out on a limb now......

My theory is that the lubed cushion wads stay in front of the shot. In doing so, they create a vacuum effect that a percentage of the shot pellets find. In this way, a denser swarm of shot finds its way to the point of aim, right behind the wad.

At first glance, one might assume that the wad slows faster than the shot, but, I doubt it. A small sphere of lead slows quickly. We know that a smaller lead ball (say 32 caliber), sheds its velocity much quicker than a larger ball (say 50 caliber) when started at the same or any velocity. Smaller balls shed a larger percentage of their speed quicker than larger balls. There should be no doubt that the pellets shed their velocity all the quicker than these larger spheres.

That said, again I believe that the lubed cushion wad decelerates slower than the shot pellets as they each begin their journey at the same velocity.

I'm basing my theory on what I have witnessed in my shooting.

More anecdotal evidence.... I have tried similar loads with UNlubed cushion wads and the density of pattern really suffers. I don't find these striking the target and rarely find any remnant of them. So, I think that the shotload does have to fight its way through/around the lighter, disintegrating dry wad, causing thinner centers in the pattern. I.e.-the dry wad slows quicker than the pellets behind it hindering dense patterns.

If I were sharper, I'd figure the ballistic coefficient for these lubed wads and compare that number to the ballistic coefficients of the different pellet sizes used. Then we could put the question of which wins the race to the target once and for all.

Are there any engineers, physicists, mathematicians, or the like reading this? If so, please figure these numbers out and let us know.

These are my considered thoughts regarding why the lubed cushion wad atop the shot charge create dense patterns for me. It's the path of least resistance, to which many pellets are attracted. I have no way of proving my theory,but, wish that I did.

I really wish that some of you all give this loading a whirl, and let us know how you make out.

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[Alden]

So do I need a card under the wad when I load it on top of the shot? :blah:

Well, that would just be a traditional overshot card. What you specifically want is an overpowder card between shot and wad here I think though that might make the pattern too tight.

 

[Alden]

Sky, for the love of everything good in the world, ask the Mods to erase your hypothesis from the memory banks.

:haha:

 

[Skychief]

Sky, for the love of everything good in the world, ask the Mods to erase your hypothesis from the memory banks.

:haha:

Overload? :idunno:

:haha:

 

[Skychief]

You just wait Alden, one day it may become a "sticky"! :hatsoff: :haha:

 

[Alden]

No, I think you proved your load CAN'T work!
LOL