American Jaeger

Discussion in 'Flintlock Rifles' started by Treestalker, Oct 11, 2019.

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  1. Oct 21, 2019 #41

    smoothshooter

    smoothshooter

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    Shorter guns are easier to cover up with a coat or a cape or piece of canvas in inclement weather.
    Also easier and faster to reload.
     
  2. Oct 21, 2019 #42

    rich pierce

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    Yep they are sure handy but that doesn’t change that based on all we know they were not made here past 1770 and maybe only a handful before that if we are talking short barreled guns like 31”.
     
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  3. Oct 21, 2019 #43

    Flintlock1640

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    Are short-barrelled rifles found in the archaeological record? I have seen a couple of rusty percussion-converted rifle barrels that subsequently became tomato stakes and was just wondering if they aren't found today because they were repurposed. Of course, that is not just short-barrelled. The same can be said for long rifles. A good chunk of metal easy to smith into something else.
     
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  4. Oct 21, 2019 #44

    rich pierce

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    Most of the archaeological record so to speak is of Native American sites and forts. Fort sites generally have parts from trade guns and military guns. Native Americans sites that are very early show mostly trade gun parts and guns “killed” and buried with their owners. Have seen no reports of short rifle barrels found at such sites. Long barrels, yes.
     
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  5. Oct 21, 2019 #45

    Rat

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    Native Americans had a strong preference for long barrels, and in fact insisted/demanded (on) them. That would most likely account for no shorties found at such sites.

    I would guess that short barreled, Jeager type rifles would be found far away from the frontiers, in towns and villages, or on farms. (but most farmers preferred a smooth bore)

    But, there's no disputing that the long barrel did come into "style" or demand, by Natives, long hunters, explorers and Frontiersmen, and that's where the market was. To say there were not "any" Jeager type rifles in use, would be stretching things a bit.
     
  6. Oct 21, 2019 #46

    Stophel

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    German rifles with "short" barrels were imported and/or brought with immigrants. I vaguely recall reading an ad in a newspaper where someone was in search of a stolen German rifle with a barrel about 2' long (or something to that effect).

    You can make whatever you want of the family history of this piece
    https://www.icollector.com/Importan...0-36-overall-with-a-21-1-4-barrel-of_i8788183

    Supposedly, RCA #15 is stocked in American black walnut. There is also a half stock bird gun that is obviously by the same man. I personally have my doubts about the wood identification (I also never bought the notion that American walnut wood was sent to Germany and made into riflestocks... or vice versa...).

    There is also a Christians' Spring/Bethlehem PA rifle that appears to be a restocking of a German rifle barrel and hardware (the lock is marked by Johann Jakob Behr). The barrel appears to be around 32", and the tang appears to have been broken off at the original screw position, as it is now REALLY short. The forward position of the new tang screw interfered with the normal position of the triggerguard, so they moved it forward too...which looks kinda funky. Otherwise, it's actually a quite spectacular gun.

    Of course, the "Edward Marshall" rifle barrel of "only" 37 inches or so is "short" in many people's opinion.

    They do exist, they were used, but my guess is that they basically were brought by German immigrants, and not so much made here, with the next generations wanting longer barreled rifles.
     
  7. Oct 22, 2019 #47

    Rudyard

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    What a pretty and unostentatious rifle that is . Whatever the merits or de merits about the long v short debate . Pretty is Pretty whatever the length . Rudyard
     
  8. Oct 22, 2019 #48

    rich pierce

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  9. Oct 22, 2019 #49

    SDSmlf

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    I have handled and fired a half dozen or so original large bore (60 cal +/-) short barrel (25”-32”) original Jaegers. All in Germany and Austria. Love them and am a big fan of short barreled large bore muzzleloaders. Have yet to handle or shoot, let alone see an American made short barreled Jaeger. Currently building a 62 caliber short barreled Jaeger. Using a fancy piece of North American Walnut, so basically a bastard build. I know and accept that, but it is what I want. Will ultimately follow one of the dozen or so European Jaeger schools, except for the wood.

    Find it interesting that some continue to push and prod for someone to agree with them that because it makes sense today, it must have happened. Even though there is no proof that it did. Let’s look at da Vinci’s ‘helicopter’ design from the 16th century. Can’t deny it wasn’t designed. Also can’t prove it it wasn’t built, so it must have been built. Correct? Same logic.

    If you want a short barreled, large caliber, North American built period flintlock, build it or have it built. Enjoy it and shoot it. Just don’t complain when someone claimes it’s not HC or PC. Because it is not. Just my opinion.
     
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  10. Oct 22, 2019 #50

    Captjoel

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    My last build was a 31" 60 cal. Getz barreled flintlock stocked in a super curly piece of ash wood. I followed styles found in books on Germanic hunting rifles for my patterns using some castings of brass from original Germanic guns. I did cheat a bit more utilizing a French butt plate and an English side plate, so what I actually built is a short barreled American stocked Euro mutt that will drop a large Michigan whitetail (if I do my part well) without having to comb the countryside for a runaway carcass!

    The wood was just too pretty not to use it!:)
     
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  11. Oct 22, 2019 #51

    Walkingeagle

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    With the re-election of our Liberal government last night, and our Prime Ministers policy of allowing one to identify as any gender, race or culture one chooses, I must report that my Lyman GPR .54 is now identifying as an Italian-American Germanic Jaeger flintlock.
    Walk
     
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  12. Oct 23, 2019 #52

    Artificer

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    The only thing that comes readily to mind would be if the owner tripped and stuck the barrel into a snow drift or mud and before he could clean out the barrel, a big fat deer came along and in his excitement to shoot, forgot the barrel was plugged. I'm not sure if snow in the barrel would ruin it on that shot, but I'm pretty sure mud would do it. Then with the resultant higher recoil, the shooter dropped the rifle and shattered the stock. (As a youth, I tripped in the field one time and stuck my shotgun barrel in a pile of snow on the way down to the ground. Fortunately I thought about cleaning out the barrel before going any further and got it cleaned out using sticks, before I took another shot.)

    However, cutting off a longer barrel to replace the muzzle end that would have bulged or split, would not result in a typical Jaeger Rifle barrel contour with flare at the muzzle. Instead it would look like what it was, a longer barrel that had been cut off and probably would look more like a tapered barrel contour.

    Gus
     
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  13. Oct 23, 2019 #53

    Treestalker

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    LOL! Like the US Army says 'Be all you can be!' Geo.
     
  14. Oct 30, 2019 #54

    excess650

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    I have a Petaconica pre-carve in their Virginia pattern that they inlet a 31" Rice swamped barrel. As of yet, still "in progress", but will handle beautifully when finished. The rifle I have been hunting with for several years is stocked in walnut, 28-1/2" Colerain .62 with Chambers early Germanic lock. Its relatively light, handy, and decisive.

    Rich has a point in that short rifles are rarely encountered. This is true, but very few pre-AWI rifles are encountered. Lots of them were "used up" during the war, or just through use. It could be the first rifles "made here" were with imported barrels, certainly the locks were imported. There is evidence of barrel production in Pennsylvania as early as 1719 as the Bakers had access to an iron ore deposit and were setting up a boring mill on what is now Pequea Creek, current day Lancaster County. Anecdotal evidence is that native american graves in that area have been found with "short barreled rifles".

    I have recently encountered a Jaegerish rifle that the dealer is trying to sell as a" Moravian gun", but likely it is a restock of old parts. The re-use of parts would have been common until they were no longer serviceable.
     
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  15. Nov 3, 2019 #55

    Mike In Oz

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    Hey buddy,

    Whos bird dog six?

    Your rifle is just what i'm looking for and i'd like to have a chat with him. :)
     
  16. Nov 3, 2019 #56

    Grenadier1758

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    At times an American Transitional Rifle designation is applied to early colonial era rifles that incorporate some features of Germanic (Jaeger) rifles with American maple stocks. Not really a Jaeger nor a Pennsylvania long rifle. Might have Jaeger trigger guard with somewhat standard double set triggers, a short barrel with a flat butt plate. Sounds kind of Frankenrifle or Fantasy rifle, but the mix of styles do show up.
     
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  17. Nov 6, 2019 #57

    excess650

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    Having had my memory jogged, consider the "sister rifle" to RCA 19. While RCA 19 is long, the "sister" has 31" of octagon barrel. Both are stocked in walnut, have sliding wooden patchbox covers, same hardware, and locks swap one to the other. There are a couple of threads relating to both elsewhere on the 'net, and color photos of both.
     
  18. Nov 6, 2019 #58

    Zonie

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    For those who don't know, RCA isn't the Radio Corporation of America. :D

    It stands for the books called "RIFLES of COLONIAL AMERICA", written and published by George Shumway.

    There are two volumes to the set and they contain photos of over 140 guns with multiple views and a written description of each one.
     
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  19. Nov 7, 2019 #59

    Stophel

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    When this rifle first "appeared", along with the Albrecht/Paxinosa theory, I was willing to look at it and see if it made sense (usually I don't cut anyone that much slack! :D ), but the more I looked at things, and the more I read of research by others showing very contrary evidence, the less I thought that their theory held any water. Basically, the only thing they really have is the weird animal on the triggerguard (I won't call it a panther... where's its tail???). If I were to see either of these guns, particularly the rifle, with no stories attached to them, I would simply think they both were German, without even a second thought. South German at that (NOT where Albrecht was from, and these guns are not typical of the north/central region where Albrecht lived and worked... but the "Edward Marshall" rifle is!). I am not convinced that either are stocked in American Black Walnut, despite the claim that #19 is. (I'm also not convinced that RCA #15 and the almost identical half stock fowling gun either one are stocked in black walnut, though it is possible.)

    I personally have no problem with someone making a maple stocked "American" rifle with a 29" barrel (assuming they do a good job!), and saying that it is meant to represent a 1740's or 1750's rifle made with a short rifle barrel. I'm sure they were around. I know at the very least some were restocked this way. I don't however, subscribe to the whole "transitional" thing with the "evolving" barrels, growing ever longer and longer. Though I will assent that to a minor extent, this is sort of true, but not in the way it is usually portrayed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019

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