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All of this misinformation is really getting old

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About the initial subject of the thread, may I ask a question :
I began to shoot black powder sixty-four years ago (I was ten years old the first time) with my great-grandfather (veteran of the Franco-German 1870 war) and with my grandfather later. They always told me : "Take the caliber of the bullet and convert it in grains, after that work and adjust the charge to your rifle".
I ever do this way, and it was ever the good way and sometime the just weight of powder at the first shot...
Is it an urban legend (there was no Internet to read or learn this at that time) ?
What do you think about ?

I used to do that when I fist started this hobby over 30 years ago. Now I've come up with my own Rules of Thumb" when it comes to rifled arms; 50 cal = 60 grains, 54 cal = 70 grains, 58 cal = 80 grains, etc. Then each is adjusted from there if needed. Barrel length has a little to do with it. I might shoot 50 grains in a 24" barrel vs 60 in a 28" or longer. This is for target shooting.

Having said that, my 40 cal likes 40 grains and I shoot 60 in my 62 cal Smooth Bore Trade Gun as it has no rifling to overcome.
 
'J'ai fait des éssais avec 2.8, 3.0 et 3.2 grammes de PNF1 avec les quelques amorces et balles minié que j'avais. Résultat: meilleur groupement à 3.0 grammes de 12X12 cm. Vu qu'à cette distance avec mon Hawken en 45 ça ne sort pas du 9-10 de la C50, je sais que je peux faire mieu avec un rechargement approprié.......'

LOL. :D

I have never said that double labeling does not exist in terms of weights and measures for manufactured products, there is a necessity and even a legal obligation: it should not be forgotten that outside the "Anglo-Saxon" countries (or similar) the standard remains the metric system for manufactured products: many manufactured ammunition do not have double labeling, the speed in meters per second is rarely indicated (unless one assumes that all the barrels are the same) .....
For the rest and in some forums, debating about black powder, it is always easier for many shooters to talk in grams of powder while they all talk about caliber in fractions of an inch (bullets, molds, length and caliber of the barrel etc...).
I totally agree with you in the sense that we come to aberrations like : "I use 500 grain bullets in .451" caliber 32-mm long with 4.00 grams of 3Fg in a 32-inch barrel with a pitch (Twist rate) of 1:21" and I get a velocity at V⁰+5 m of 320 ms"....
There to navigate these explanations you need a good calculator and/or to be European or even maybe French..... :D :D :D
 
LOL. :D

I have never said that double labeling does not exist in terms of weights and measures for manufactured products, there is a necessity and even a legal obligation: it should not be forgotten that outside the "Anglo-Saxon" countries (or similar) the standard remains the metric system for manufactured products: many manufactured ammunition do not have double labeling, the speed in meters per second is rarely indicated (unless one assumes that all the barrels are the same) .....
For the rest and in some forums, debating about black powder, it is always easier for many shooters to talk in grams of powder while they all talk about caliber in fractions of an inch (bullets, molds, length and caliber of the barrel etc...).
I totally agree with you in the sense that we come to aberrations like : "I use 500 grain bullets in .451" caliber 32-mm long with 4.00 grams of 3Fg in a 32-inch barrel with a pitch (Twist rate) of 1:21" and I get a velocity at V⁰+5 m of 320 ms"....
There to navigate these explanations you need a good calculator and/or to be European or even maybe French..... :D :D :D

Il y a quelques personnes ici qui parlent bien le français ou d'autres langues, mais nous nous abstenons d'utiliser une langue étrangère sauf lorsqu'il est utile de faire une meilleure explication.

Peut-être. ;)

There are a few people here who speak good French or other languages, but we abstain from using a foreign language unless it provides a better explanation.

Maybe. ;)
 
IMHO the boiling water doesn't do a damn thing that tepid or even cold water won't do, except help the bore dry faster, and create a haze of rust if i=the hot barrel doesn't get oiled almost immediately. I just use whatever comes out of the 'hot' tap with a couple of drops of detergent. Give it a rinse with water only, then dry patches until it is bone dry. Follow immediately with your favourite preservative (I like G96) on a clean patch, then use that patch to wipe down all the metal.

I'm with you, the point of using water is to neutralize the elements in the fouling that cause the destructive effects. Hot water heats the metal and makes it dry faster. It can also cause "Flash Rusting".

I use hot tap water, blue Dawn Dish Detergent with about a tablespoon of Borax (the Anti-Rust agent in Water-pump Lubricant). I brush the barrel followed by cleaning patches on a jag. I pour clean water down it then blow it out with my Air Compressor. Next comes Isopropyl Alcohol on a patch or two followed by a couple dry ones. Lastly, I apply WD40 to a patch and run it up and down the barrel. I also coat all metal parts that could rust. I believe it was Midway that did a test of the different compounds that could be used to preserve your guns. The plate with the WD40 was the cleanest and most rust free!

So here's another myth; WD40 will cause your barrel to rust because it ATTRACTS moisture! It does not mix with water as the main ingredient is fish oil. IT DISPLACES IT! Hence the name Water Displacement Formula #40. That's my two cents for now but I have alot of pennies left! 😁
 
I NEVER forget anything......that I didn't know anything about to start with. But some of these dolts know it all just because, well, they KNOW it all. The world will never run out of these...these..., well, you know. Age creates neither knowledge or wisdom; only research and testing does that. The Earth is overpopulated with old, and young as well, who know only the wrong thing to do and nothing else. There is far more sewage out there than knowledge so watch where you step. It is therefore incumbent upon all of us to be somewhat skeptical and not parrot everything we read or hear.

I agree! The worse one is "We've ALWAYS done it that way. Or, they're been doing it that way for hundreds of years. It doesn't make it right. It reminds me of a story: A woman was cooking a big roast for her family gathering. She cut the ends off before putting it in the pan. Her daughter asked, "Mom, why do you cut the ends off?" "Because my mother did", was her reply. So they asked Grandma and her response was that her mother did it that way. So, they asked Great-Grandma, to which she answered, "I only had one Roasting pan and it was too small!"
 
I always use WD40 when cleaning my MLs as I did with my .22s & scattergun. If I can't finish the cleaning for a day or two I protect with WD40. But after finished cleaning I protect with Barricade.

And I still wonder where this WD40 & fish oil manure originated. My, my.
 
I NEVER forget anything......that I didn't know anything about to start with. But some of these dolts know it all just because, well, they KNOW it all. The world will never run out of these...these..., well, you know. Age creates neither knowledge or wisdom; only research and testing does that. The Earth is overpopulated with old, and young as well, who know only the wrong thing to do and nothing else. There is far more sewage out there than knowledge so watch where you step. It is therefore incumbent upon all of us to be somewhat skeptical and not parrot everything we read or hear.

A fellow once told me that he didn't like people that thought they knew it all. He said it bothers people like you and me that actually do!
 
I always use WD40 when cleaning my MLs as I did with my .22s & scattergun. If I can't finish the cleaning for a day or two I protect with WD40. But after finished cleaning I protect with Barricade.

And I still wonder where this WD40 & fish oil manure originated. My, my.

OMG! Here we are talking about what's true and not; I remember reading a very informative article on the Virtures of WD40 and how the main ingredient was Fish oil. A quick Internet search proved that's BS! Wow, I've just become one of the folks we've all been talking about. Feeling a bit sheepish right now!
 
OMG! Here we are talking about what's true and not; I remember reading a very informative article on the Virtures of WD40 and how the main ingredient was Fish oil. A quick Internet search proved that's BS! Wow, I've just become one of the folks we've all been talking about. Feeling a bit sheepish right now!
Where I use to work, and this was the people training us on guns told us the WD-40 was water based so don't use it. I knew that was B.S. but didn't say anything because I would just get chastised for it.
 
OMG! Here we are talking about what's true and not; I remember reading a very informative article on the Virtures of WD40 and how the main ingredient was Fish oil. A quick Internet search proved that's BS! Wow, I've just become one of the folks we've all been talking about. Feeling a bit sheepish right now!
You may well be called a BPaddict but like a heroin addict you may be unaware of the harmful element in the substance you are addicted too.

Any oil out of the ground will not absorb the various salts produce on combustion of black powder, especially wd40 and any other similar based product.
It is not historically correct too.
Nor is an air compressor!

Makes me laugh. Y'all like dressing in period type dress when shooting your smoke poles but tell me please, is that how you walk in Walmart to get a part for the compressor or a new can of wd40?
😆😆😆
 
Sir, there is no 'American grain' weight. The pound weight consists of 7000 grains. The pound referred to is the Troy weight pound that replaced the earlier and lighter Tower pound of twelve ounces.

Quote - Pound, unit of avoirdupois weight, equal to 16 ounces, 7,000 grains, or 0.45359237 kg, and of troy and apothecaries’ weight, equal to 12 ounces, 5,760 grains, or 0.3732417216 kg. The Roman ancestor of the modern pound, the libra, is the source of the abbreviation lb. In medieval England several derivations of the libra vied for general acceptance. Among the earliest of these, the Tower pound, so called because its standard was kept in the Royal Mint in the Tower of London, was applied to precious metals and drugs and contained 5,400 grains, or 0.350 kg, whereas the mercantile pound contained 6,750 grains, or 0.437 kg. The troy pound, believed to have originated in Troyes, France, superseded the lighter Tower pound in 1527 as the gold and silver standard. Increased trade with France led also to the adoption of the 16-ounce avoirdupois pound in the 16th century to replace the mercantile pound.

As an aside, I was not aware that the French used inches for bullets and grains for powder.

Also, this is a quote from ctc-castelnau site -

Quelle poudre et quelle charge :
Il existe 2 principales poudres : la PNF2 et la poudre Suisse N°1. Cette dernière est un peu plus chère mais très régulière en granulométrie et un peu plus puissante ce qui permet des charges plus légères. En outre la Suisse N°1 laisse moins de résidus. La charge de poudre dépend de l'arme et du tireur. En général entre 0.8 grammes et 1.3 grammes de poudre mais chaque arme à un dosage préférentiel qui donne les meilleurs résultats. C'est donc une alchimie, qui fait aussi le charme de la poudre noire, pour trouver le meilleur chargement en poudre et diamètre de balle pour optimiser les résultats. Pour débuter et sans balance de précision, il est possible de doser simplement en volume avec une douille de 9mm qui, remplie, fait de l'ordre de 0.9 grammes de poudre.

No grains there, eh? Of any kind.

Certainly, my experience of shooting French-made rifles - I began my shooting career on school trips to France and Switzerland from 1962 onwards - like Lebel, Gras, MAS, FAMS et al, makes no mention of inches or grains - millimetres, grams and metres/sec seem to be used to denote ammunition diameters, weights and velocity. I've obviously overlooked something here in my last sixty years of shooting.
Come on! Let's keep this simple! We're not in France, England, Germany, or any other Country.
If a newbie to Muzzleloading or even modern shooting, sees this post, they're just going to run and think it is to complicated to get in the shooting sport. Let's stick to what we do here in the USA! My God, we're talking about powder loads and projectiles. There's an old saying: "kiss"....
 
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Sir, there is no 'American grain' weight. The pound weight consists of 7000 grains. The pound referred to is the Troy weight pound that replaced the earlier and lighter Tower pound of twelve ounces.

Quote - Pound, unit of avoirdupois weight, equal to 16 ounces, 7,000 grains, or 0.45359237 kg, and of troy and apothecaries’ weight, equal to 12 ounces, 5,760 grains, or 0.3732417216 kg. The Roman ancestor of the modern pound, the libra, is the source of the abbreviation lb. In medieval England several derivations of the libra vied for general acceptance. Among the earliest of these, the Tower pound, so called because its standard was kept in the Royal Mint in the Tower of London, was applied to precious metals and drugs and contained 5,400 grains, or 0.350 kg, whereas the mercantile pound contained 6,750 grains, or 0.437 kg. The troy pound, believed to have originated in Troyes, France, superseded the lighter Tower pound in 1527 as the gold and silver standard. Increased trade with France led also to the adoption of the 16-ounce avoirdupois pound in the 16th century to replace the mercantile pound.

As an aside, I was not aware that the French used inches for bullets and grains for powder.

Also, this is a quote from ctc-castelnau site -

Quelle poudre et quelle charge :
Il existe 2 principales poudres : la PNF2 et la poudre Suisse N°1. Cette dernière est un peu plus chère mais très régulière en granulométrie et un peu plus puissante ce qui permet des charges plus légères. En outre la Suisse N°1 laisse moins de résidus. La charge de poudre dépend de l'arme et du tireur. En général entre 0.8 grammes et 1.3 grammes de poudre mais chaque arme à un dosage préférentiel qui donne les meilleurs résultats. C'est donc une alchimie, qui fait aussi le charme de la poudre noire, pour trouver le meilleur chargement en poudre et diamètre de balle pour optimiser les résultats. Pour débuter et sans balance de précision, il est possible de doser simplement en volume avec une douille de 9mm qui, remplie, fait de l'ordre de 0.9 grammes de poudre.

No grains there, eh? Of any kind.

Certainly, my experience of shooting French-made rifles - I began my shooting career on school trips to France and Switzerland from 1962 onwards - like Lebel, Gras, MAS, FAMS et al, makes no mention of inches or grains - millimetres, grams and metres/sec seem to be used to denote ammunition diameters, weights and velocity. I've obviously overlooked something here in my last sixty years of shooting.
Come on! Let's keep this simple! We're not in France, England, Germany, or any other Country.
If a newbie to Muzzleloading or even modern shooting, they're just going to run and think it is to complicated to get in the shooting sport. Let's stick to what we do here in the USA! My God, we're talking about powder loads and projectiles. There's an old saying: "kiss"....
 
I don't care what subject is discussed when several or more people get invested in it, whether it's about Guns, motorcycles, or hunting dogs, you'll always have folks who have an opinion, some will be correct, others so far off the truth scale it's enough to confuse even the brightest of the bunch.
This thread is a good example, in my opinion there has been a good amount of wisdom passed along in these eight pages, but there also been a greater amount of BS dispersed from folks who right from the get go claim to "really" know it all, I'll leave it to you all to sort it all out for yourselves.
However, one suggestion I might offer is to all those members who claim to be myth busters, you might want to do more reading and allot less writing.

Have a great day gentlemen. :thumb:
 

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