I built a Sam Hawken rifle around an old Ithica/Navy Arms barrel that I got on the cheap on Ebay. It is my understanding that those barrels have 1-66" rifling. I have tried every patch and ball/ powder combination I can think of and continue to be unable to find a consistent load at 50 yards with a PRB. Today I shot some Hornady PA conicals just to see what happens (I have tried every PRB combo thinkable) and with 75 grains of Old Ensford powder....the bullet holes touch at 50 yards consistently. I am confused by this. I would really like to shoot a PRB, however...I will shoot what gives me best accuracy...I guess Im just perplexed and looking for any knowledge as to how this is so.
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Accuracy Woes
- Thread starter Tizzy
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Patch thickness? May want to try a slightly oversized wad between the powder and patched found ball. If accuracy improves, you have some work to do with your patch. Could be too thin.
Have you measured the twist?
Do this by itting a reasonably tight patch on your rod. Mark the rod with a line along its length.
Place the patched rod in the barrel so that it catches the rifling with your line at the top. Mark the muzzle and push the rod in either a half turn or a full turn and then mark the muzzle again. Now measure the distance between your 2 marks and you can calculate the twist.
Once you have this you will have some idea what is more likely to work.
Is the rifling deep? How do the patches look? examining them can tell you a lot about fit etcetra.
What powder charge range have you tried?
Do this by itting a reasonably tight patch on your rod. Mark the rod with a line along its length.
Place the patched rod in the barrel so that it catches the rifling with your line at the top. Mark the muzzle and push the rod in either a half turn or a full turn and then mark the muzzle again. Now measure the distance between your 2 marks and you can calculate the twist.
Once you have this you will have some idea what is more likely to work.
Is the rifling deep? How do the patches look? examining them can tell you a lot about fit etcetra.
What powder charge range have you tried?
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Lawrence Your a gem you always have sound advise .
Rudyard
Rudyard
I just measured the rate of twist and by my calculation it came out to 1-63" twist.
I have tried .490 ball with .010 and .20 patch with powder charges ranging from 60 gr. FFFg to 90 gr. FFFg.
I have also tried .495 ball with .020 patch with 80-95 gr. FFG Old Ensford. Additionally, I have been using an over the powder wad to eliminate patch damage. I began this practice due to finding torn patches downrange. Once started using over powder wad...the patches show no tear or burn-through. One thing I have noticed is the barrel groups best with a 90 gr. FFFG charge.
I have tried .490 ball with .010 and .20 patch with powder charges ranging from 60 gr. FFFg to 90 gr. FFFg.
I have also tried .495 ball with .020 patch with 80-95 gr. FFG Old Ensford. Additionally, I have been using an over the powder wad to eliminate patch damage. I began this practice due to finding torn patches downrange. Once started using over powder wad...the patches show no tear or burn-through. One thing I have noticed is the barrel groups best with a 90 gr. FFFG charge.
For clarity from my last post...the barrel shoots a PRB best with 90 gr. FFFg...but has best accuracy with PA conical and 75 gr. FFG.
It would seem you are in the ball park loads wise.
When you say you no longer get tear or burn through then I guess you used to? Have you smoothed the crown? Sanded the crown using thumb pressure to break any sharp edges. If the patches were tearing then this could be a sharp crown or sharp edges on the rifling. To remove sharp edges use some scotchbrite instead of a cleaning patch or just put a hundred or so shots through it.
And what group size are we talking about at 50 yards? Bench or off - hand?
What does the bore mike at? If the grooves are shallow then this is not ideal for PRB but should still shoot.
What is you patch material?
Also have you noticed any tight or loose areas in the barrel?
When you say you no longer get tear or burn through then I guess you used to? Have you smoothed the crown? Sanded the crown using thumb pressure to break any sharp edges. If the patches were tearing then this could be a sharp crown or sharp edges on the rifling. To remove sharp edges use some scotchbrite instead of a cleaning patch or just put a hundred or so shots through it.
And what group size are we talking about at 50 yards? Bench or off - hand?
What does the bore mike at? If the grooves are shallow then this is not ideal for PRB but should still shoot.
What is you patch material?
Also have you noticed any tight or loose areas in the barrel?
Are you swabbing between shots to get consistency?
I hope not. No point in making it worse!
Evidently what he’s doing now isn’t working out for him.I hope not. No point in making it worse!
Barrel probably just wants running in.
How many shots was it through it?
Flint or percussion?
How easy were the 50 caliber balls to load. I would expect very easy.
Have you measured the bore diameter? IIRC the Ithaca/Navy rifle was a 54 caliber, actually more of a 53 caliber that required a ball of 0.526" diameter. You would need a very thick patch for a 0.490 ball to work in a barrel of 53 caliber. Do measure your bore diameter.
What was the diameter of the Hornady PA conicals?
Have you measured the bore diameter? IIRC the Ithaca/Navy rifle was a 54 caliber, actually more of a 53 caliber that required a ball of 0.526" diameter. You would need a very thick patch for a 0.490 ball to work in a barrel of 53 caliber. Do measure your bore diameter.
What was the diameter of the Hornady PA conicals?
Thanks for the help men. The bore mics at .516 in the grooves, .506 across lands.
I have tried both wiping between shots and not wiping. All shots are from bench.
I have tried patching material from cotton, pillow ticking, blue jean denim.
I am unsure how many shots were put through it before I got barrel from ebay, however it was used. I ran a bore scope down it, it does not have what I considder pits...but maybe rough spots from tool chatter in lands.
I am about to head outside to try .495 ball, .20 thick patch combined with 100gr FFG...my reasoning...it shows more promising groups with 90gr FFFg...so maybee it will like a little heftier charge with FFg. Ill let you know how it goes.
I have tried both wiping between shots and not wiping. All shots are from bench.
I have tried patching material from cotton, pillow ticking, blue jean denim.
I am unsure how many shots were put through it before I got barrel from ebay, however it was used. I ran a bore scope down it, it does not have what I considder pits...but maybe rough spots from tool chatter in lands.
I am about to head outside to try .495 ball, .20 thick patch combined with 100gr FFG...my reasoning...it shows more promising groups with 90gr FFFg...so maybee it will like a little heftier charge with FFg. Ill let you know how it goes.
Well...the 90gr FFG charge was all over the place. I worked my way down in powder charge just to see what would happen....at 65 gr. FFG I got this 3 shot consecutive group...I guess it is acceptable accuracy..or consistency rather. The primary purpose I built this rifle for is deer hunting. I have never shot a deer with that low of powder charge...I know shot placement over muzzle energy all day....however, I still wonder if any of you have used that light of charge for deer...and can offer your thoughts on if it is sufficient. Thanks again.
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Take that 65/495 load and shoot ten of them on top of each other. If the group of 10 looks like those 3, start adjusting the sights to put the group on the ink.
60 grains in my st louis hawkin .50 Oct 25th blew a dandy lil spike backwards off the berm of the tank (water hole), he never moved. As per above .....100yds and less you go get yer meat with 65 gr charge and use the left over to practice more!
HiDesertHunter
40 Cal
I would like to offer a suggestion - and it's something I did a few years ago and and it made a world of difference.
It appears your target is a hand drawn 'bullseye' on a sheet of paper.
I used to shoot at home printed targets, or otherwise homemade and after eye surgery a few years ago I came to the revelation the target bullseyes I was shooting at were not 'pronounced' enough to allow me to sight clearly on them and my accuracy was suffering.
Simply put the bullseye was not big enough or bright enough to allow a good image to 'fix' the sight on.
I had for years seen the target dots for sale and being a cheapskate never bought them but I broke down and bought a pack of the 3" style. I stuck them on my printed targets and saw an IMMEDIATE improvement. The larger, brighter target dot gave me a much better reference for sight alignment and positioning. You might want to give some a try yourself.
This is one of the 'dots' stuck on a printed target.
![IMG_1621[1].JPG](https://cdn2.imagearchive.com/muzzleloadingforum/data/attach/52/52615-IMG-1621-1-.JPG "IMG_1621[1].JPG")
It appears your target is a hand drawn 'bullseye' on a sheet of paper.
I used to shoot at home printed targets, or otherwise homemade and after eye surgery a few years ago I came to the revelation the target bullseyes I was shooting at were not 'pronounced' enough to allow me to sight clearly on them and my accuracy was suffering.
Simply put the bullseye was not big enough or bright enough to allow a good image to 'fix' the sight on.
I had for years seen the target dots for sale and being a cheapskate never bought them but I broke down and bought a pack of the 3" style. I stuck them on my printed targets and saw an IMMEDIATE improvement. The larger, brighter target dot gave me a much better reference for sight alignment and positioning. You might want to give some a try yourself.
This is one of the 'dots' stuck on a printed target.
