A wild weekend

[Headspace12]

Hey Everyone,

So, to give a quick background of my story, I got married yesterday! While the women were doing all their hair and makeup my father, brother, and myself wandered around the coast of NC going to antique shops and flea markets and garage sales and the like. We've always been a bunch of antique'ers and self proclaimed scavengers, so for us - it was a good time.

While in a 'higher end" (we'll call it that because things were EXPENSIVE) we started reallllllly digging around. Out of a, literally, dark, dusty corner, essentially behind a counter and away from customer traffic I found a muzzle loader shotgun. I picked it up, and as the saying goes "knew just enough to be dangerous". So with one a few minutes left before we had to start heading back to put our suits on I still hadnt decided exactly what it is so I bascially said "&$#@ it. This is my special day, and I'm bringing this thing with me." and for 500 bucks - out the door it went.

I know (think) its a William and Chance made gun that was imported to VA. At least, thats what it says...

Here's where I'm at: This thing is marked 1862, and sports a "CSA" mark. Is it real? Is it fake?

PROS:

The Date fits: American Civil War was obviously 1861-1865 - so 1862 fits.
The Circumstances: Its early-ish in the war, and the confederacy did push a lot of "sporting" arms into service. They also had much more of a love for shotguns than the Union did and shotguns were imported from overseas by the confederacy.
The Condition: This poor thing has been BEAT. Having dealt with Mosins for years, I know that sometimes they are SUPPOSED to be in tough shape. I cannot imagine even a cheap (I'm presuming this was) shotgun being used to THIS extent. Forget about being safe to fire now, I am wondering if it was safe to fire THEN! lol
The Stamp: I've dealt with Forged Mosins - I own one and have held many. The "CSA" and "1862" stamps arent new. If they are from THAT time for not, I dont know, but they weren't added recently...
The Ramrod: Is been broken and poorly glued back together, I dont know if is even original or a very old replacement - again suggesting a lot of abuse I wouldnt expect from duck hunting. LOL I would almost think of it as "field made". I own some "trench art" guns and sort of get the same vibe off of this piece.
Google has turned up record of "collections" of sporting arms from the civilian populations so that dragnet really could've pulled in anything...
It still works: Hammer, Trigger, Half cock, ramrod comes out, all that. Its not like it was frozen and hanging on someone else's wall.

The CONS:
Confederate stuff has a million forgeries... Anybody could've found an old shotgun and thought "HA! With a few stamps I can charge 500% more!!"
It's not a double barrel: Most of what Google showed me for "Confederate Shotguns" were all imported double barrels...
Length: I would expect it to be shorter?
The stamping: Confederate stuff appears to have been marked more "CS" than "CSA" (though evidently some stuff was "CSA" marked?)

The wildcard:
Confederate logistics appear to have been a nightmare... will anyone ever really know what was marked what?

I figure at the end of the day, I have a pretty cool, old, wall hanger for my "armory" from a very special day, - so I dont feel like I was taken advantage of regardless, but boy wouldn't it be cool if it was legit? lol

Let me know your thoughts, and I am happy to post more pictures, or try to take stuff apart.

Thanks,

Headspace

 

[Sam squanch]

I was told years ago if “ csa” is stamped on a gun- it’s fake. I’ve seen csa stamped on shotguns, pinfire revolvers, flintlocks, and even on an Allen pepper box. It would take an expert in confederate arms to determine.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I think the maker (at least of the lock) was William Chance (no "and"). An English gunsmith who worked out of Birmingham. I'm no appraiser, but I do like the lines of it.

 

[user 48679]

It doesn't look like a fake to me - but what do I know......

Congrats on yer nuptials ! !

 

[Headspace12]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I've turned up a few more interesting things.

Trying to not DOX myself - I do feel its relevant that I found the gun in the Outer Banks of NC. I see both positive and negative implications to this. On one hand, the area is relevant to the civil war - especially with the 1862 stamping. On the other, its a high tourist area and would be a good place to sell a fake to some unsuspecting person who's not local.

I found a 2nd hand account of rebel defenders being "Poorly clothed, often armed with nothing more than their own personal shotguns" - I'm still looking for the primary source. Another 2ndary account qoutes "Accounts of early war southern regiments being armed almost entirely with shotguns are not uncommon, especially in places like Fort Donelson (TN) and serving in fortifications along the North Carolina Coast." Again, I'm still hunting the primary source on that, so take it with a grain of salt...

The 2nd, 8th, 17th, and 31st NC infantry, and the 46th, and 59th, VA infantry were in the area at the time. With this gun having VA import marks on it, that puzzle piece also fits that it would find up in the hands of VA infantry and marched south.

A question I present to you is: Along the same lines that a bayonet lug, or added sling attachments would suggest military use, another thing I've found is that sometimes the percussion system was changed from a "Shotgun" sized cap to a "Rifle" sized cap. Can somebody explain those differences to me? Would that create the kind of deformation and damage we see on the hammer of this gun? Higher pressure or something?

 

[Thagomizer]

The hammer damage is from over travel caused by the eroded away nipple. The two common cap sizes are the rifle size, usually #11, and musket size. This Fowler would not normally use musket caps.

 

[cyten]

by "forged mosins" I assume you mean Finnish SA marked fakes. Those are easier to fake because the original Suomen Armeija stamps are still in circulation. With confederate guns... whole different story. Given your location, I would take it somewhere to have an expert examine it in person. I will say the few legit examples I have seen were marked CS not CSA. Either way, cool piece.

 

[Headspace12]

Mosins assembled by importers from parts that dont make sense, Mosins with all sorts of crazy stampings, and even one that had a swastika at one point that was obviously added recently as the stamping was sharp and shiny... *facepalm*

My BS meter was / is running high with this shotgun, but not enough for me to leave it behind.

I'm gonna see if I can find a civil war forum to pull information from. I'll keep you all posted if I learn anything new...

 

[Headspace12]

Hey All,

I just wanted to give an update from the Civil War Forum (and some local reputable dealers I've gone too)

We have collectively determined that it LIKELY is NOT a CSA shotgun.

The bottom line - The A in the CSA wouldn't exist, and the font is wrong.

However, folks did consistently, individually, point out - that the gun was made 1820s-1840s. So it was in the country, and with Norfolk being stamped on it, it was in the south. The CSA stamping is not a recent addition, and logistics were chaotic in this area so who knows what small units / armories / individuals were doing.

An interesting idea that was floated by one is that perhaps it could've been marked by a Veterans family. Which if it didnt sound like such a stretch could justify the contextual clues and balance it out with the likely fake markings.

In any event, I am not going to molest the gun in any way. I am going to oil it up with some Fluid Film, tuck it in a safe place, mark in my book that it is not a CSA gun, and perhaps revisit it at a later date if the opportunity presents itself. I've reached out as far as contacts in Japan hunting for the history of specific firearms we'll just have to see where this one takes me in the future. My next steps are to find somebody around here with musket caps (thank you Thagomizer) to see if they fit, and continue trying to find any information I can on the importer.

Thank you for all your ideas, references, help, and good conversation!

-headspace.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I wouldn't pay more than $25 for that gun.