A Few Words About Smoothbores.

[tenngun]

I read an old account long ago that mentioned tucking a round ball into the finger-tips of kid gloves and cutting them off to be loaded in Smoothbores.
I think it may have been about hunting in Canada(?)

I have had the most consistent accurascy in my light fusil with pat & ball, and wiping with a dampened (not saturated) patch between shots.

My Charleville shot well w/loose ball over wadding, but there is one thing the theorists of "balls chattering off the walls of the barrel" , or "contacting the left side of the bore and spinning to the left" haven't bothered to notice, and that is that a twist of paper rammed down the bore and tamped hard down on the powder with a loose ball and top wad will sometimes leave a barely damaged wad down-range that shows the the wadding "cups" around the base of the bullet almost like a sabot.
Even if the ball drags on the barrel wall, I doubt than "spin" is imparted, & IMCO, the ball had been well-centered in the bore.

As to patched balls not being documented, ok, but if a man was stuck with 24 ga. Balls and a 20ga. Gun, a heavy patch of canvas or leather would be bound to suggest itself.
If I were young & fit, the "experimental archeology" approach of a couple years in the woods dependent upon my smoothbore , snares & dead falls for all my meat would sort real-world from pedantic chaff ;-)
Sadly, that is not an option for me.

When shooting tow or some similar fiber like hemp or cedar bark, wads I make a nest in to tow to ram down. While patching makes sense from today’s point of view, something I would bet they did, they could still wad an undersized ball.

 

[Rat]

Absolutely brilliant Spence! How do you find this stuff? Well done.
Keith.

Now if we can just get Le Loup to dance a war dance for a while with that pistol of his, that would be an interesting experiment.

 

[George]

Seems to me they used up their shirt-tails and underwear on wads and patches.

Some of them did, for true.

From “With Fire and Sword”, James Nelson....
According to William Prescott, commander of forces at Bunker Hill battle, “Our ammunition being nearly exhausted, [we] could keep up only a scattering fire. The enemy being numerous, surrounded our little fort, began to mount our lines and enter the fort with their bayonets.” some of the men began throwing rocks at the onrushing enemy. Private Perkins of Newburyport “fir’d away all his Cartridges & having some loose Powder in his Pocket he was oblig’d to Strip & tore off some part of his shirt to make wadding.”

Spence

 

[Pukka Bundook]

There may be one more thing to take into account when firing a ball with a wad behind;

When trying my EIC percussion musket for a start,(original) I was using a full charge of 2F,(125 grains) a thick felt wad, ball,(.750 " in the .760" dia. barrel) a good dollop of lube, and another felt wad on top.
Recovered balls showed a definite 'equator' around the middle, where they had expanded to fit the bore tightly.
This appears to show if we use a 'roll down fit' we are probably on ignition, getting a v good tight fit in the bore, If we use fairly Heavy charges.
This appears to line up with what others have found.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

If we wish to broaden our horizons where wadding is concerned;
In India, dry cow dung is used.
Dry being the key.
I have tried it in Indian toradors, and it goes off with a crack like more usual wadding.
It also left the bore very nice, with no greasy fouling. Each to his own and all that, but it does work.
Please pardon the double post. just came to me!

 

[Artificer]

Some of them did, for true.

From “With Fire and Sword”, James Nelson....
According to William Prescott, commander of forces at Bunker Hill battle, “Our ammunition being nearly exhausted, [we] could keep up only a scattering fire. The enemy being numerous, surrounded our little fort, began to mount our lines and enter the fort with their bayonets.” some of the men began throwing rocks at the onrushing enemy. Private Perkins of Newburyport “fir’d away all his Cartridges & having some loose Powder in his Pocket he was oblig’d to Strip & tore off some part of his shirt to make wadding.”

Spence

Not sure if that was dedication or survival or both, but that's another great quote.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

If we wish to broaden our horizons where wadding is concerned;
In India, dry cow dung is used.
Dry being the key.
I have tried it in Indian toradors, and it goes off with a crack like more usual wadding.
It also left the bore very nice, with no greasy fouling. Each to his own and all that, but it does work.
Please pardon the double post. just came to me!

I’ve got a Yorkie and he has lots of hair. I saved it until I had a good bag. Mixed it with lard cut off in small balls it made good wads... but stank!!smelled like rancid bacon, wet dirty dog, and me a week on the trail, in summer.

 

[Rat]

Yorkshires rule. The grouse in my avatar pic were all flushed up by a Yorkie. Best grouse dog ever, could get after them in thick stuff where a rabbit wouldn't go, let alone a "real" bird dog.

 

[Brokennock]

However the first photo is not horrible and could only need some fine tuning with patch thickness in order to improve. ‍

That 1st photo is unfortunately the best group I got at 25 yards with any patch/ball and powder combo. Many were much worse. Oddly I could match it with a looser ball/patch combo, .595 ball and. 010 patch if I recall, which was part of the inspiration to follow Spence's advice and try a wad and ball. No point trying that combo at 50. The wad combo grouped much better.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

There may be one more thing to take into account when firing a ball with a wad behind;

When trying my EIC percussion musket for a start,(original) I was using a full charge of 2F,(125 grains) a thick felt wad, ball,(.750 " in the .760" dia. barrel) a good dollop of lube, and another felt wad on top.
Recovered balls showed a definite 'equator' around the middle, where they had expanded to fit the bore tightly.
This appears to show if we use a 'roll down fit' we are probably on ignition, getting a v good tight fit in the bore, If we use fairly Heavy charges.
This appears to line up with what others have found.

Pukka, that is the best recommendation of this thread. KY Jelly is the recommended lube, is it not?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Va. Manuf,
I learned this loading method from an old pal, Bill Curtis RA. You maybe know Bill?
Yes, he recommended KY Jelly.
I had been having very good luck with another product, "Udderly Smooth", (Wally World) so tried it and it keeps fouling altogether in check, no matter how many rounds fired.
Nothing wrong with Bill's advice, but the alternative Also works.

Another good friend back home uses a lighter charge and a patched ball, and does extremely well with it.
The key to success with a ball and wads being the higher powder charges.

Very best,
Richard.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Please pardon the double post;
I just saw this depiction again tonight whilst looking for something else;
It was originally in a thread by Michael Tromner.
It is an illustration of a Lansknechts shooting accessoriess, from I believe the mid 1500's at latest.
Near the centre, we can clearly see a ball, sitting on Patching Material, that has obviously been cut before at the muzzle.
The material has circular cut-outs where the ball was seated in the barrel and the patch cut off.
This must be one of the earliest depictions of patches for smooth bores cut at the muzzle.
(I know of no Lansknecht's snap matchlocks that are rifled, but rifled arms Were known.)
Please see picture below.
R.

Also, not the "wad" punch and the patches cut with this punch.
They are patches, as they are much larger than the ball, and very thin it appears.
.................On Third thought!...maybe the patches were punched from the material that the ball is sitting on, and Not cut at the muzzle.

 

[George]

The material has circular cut-outs where the ball was seated in the barrel and the patch cut off.

Then why are the cut-outs the same size as the ball?

Spence

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Spence,
For the same reason the ball pullers and tow worm are the same size as the gun!

I don't think perspective was well understood amongst the less than Michaelangelo types back then.

Very best,
R.

 

[George]

Well, maybe, but it's weak.

Spence

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Spence,
I don't have anything in it for myself. Just seems logical to me. Look at the medieval pictures of castles, the men in it are nearly as big as the castle..

What do You suggest it is? The balls, patch /wad cutter and the patching material are all different sizes, as are the bore tools...much larger than the actual bore.
I would really like to know what you think these pertinent accessories are.
Don't worry Spence, if you are right and I'm wrong I will not lose sleep over it!!
Is that a ball mould to the left of the ball?
If it Is, the sprue hole is bigger than the ball as well.
I think it is a grand picture of accessories from the earlier 1500's.

Maybe someone here can read the Old German script.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[George]

Your interpretation is as good as mine, and it may well just be a matter of perspective. Still...they got the size of the patch punch the same as the punched patches, why wouldn't they get the balls and cut-outs correctly proportioned?

I would agree that is a ball mold. What is the thing to the right of the ball and patching material?

Interesting to see several familiar things, cleaning jags, worms, etc.

Neat illustration.

Spence

 

[tenngun]

Now to throw a wrench at the monkey, across the top is the ramrod, is that t handled piece that’s tipped just like the ram rod a short starter? Hmmm
Unless it’s a wood chisel? Or a reamer of some sort.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Then why are the cut-outs the same size as the ball?

Spence

The "wads" look the same diameter as the rammer at top. And the jags shown are wider than the outside breech. ;-)

Some perspective liberties in that diagram.

 

[Artificer]

I also think it is a matter of perspective. Yes, the holes in the patching material look the same size as the balls, but we know they wouldn't work that size. However, immediately above and slightly to the right, the cut patches are shown larger than the size of the ball and that appears to be the right perspective compared to the ball size.

Had the holes been in felt or thicker leather, then the same size cut outs would make wads/cards, but that is not what is shown.

Gus