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Oh no, didn't say they didn't, just that I don't see how they could when the pistols were in holsters, hanging over the withers of a horse, muzzle down. ! However, in this case, it could be easily proved one way or the other, by loading such horse pistols (good article in the American Rifleman about Washington's pair of matching horse pistols) with loose ball and wad, putting them in replica horse-holsters, and going for a ride. I don't have horses anymore, or a pair of large caliber, smooth-bore pistols, or horse-holsters that were commonly used, but I bet there's someone out there that does, and could perform the deed. The results, and conclusions would be most interesting.
Would they have used paper cartridges as this was the method used in their muskets?
Keith.
 
Rat, I no longer have a horse, never did have pommel holsters, but I very frequently carry a 20 gauge flintlock in my belt/sash on my treks and hunts. It's commonly wadded with either tow or cedar bark, and I've never had a ball even shift position, let alone fall out.

Spence
 
Good point on being able to use most anything for wadding. I was kind of wondering how they could use up so much of a valuable commodity such as cloth, or even old blankets. But, the amount of cloth to patch a ball in a rifle is much less that what it would take to make a wad, and I would think a skilled rifleman would have to have a ample supply of patch material, same as powder and lead, and flints. I don't think the amount of patch material to keep a rifle running amounts to that much. But that begs the question, what was the most common wad material used? Tow? Cedar bark? Moss? Dirty underwear? Did they wear underwear?? And if so, did they document their underwear. :)
 
Spence, I've got to say, packing a pistol on one's person, would be a whole different game/environment than over the withers of a trotting or galloping horse. Some horses will jar your teeth out when they trot. !!!!
 
Every smooth bore gun I have ever shot and been able to compare performance between patched and wadded, shot far and away better with the patched ball then the wadded one and I have shot a bunch.

As we know from many, many posts on this and other forums about "best load" combinations for a given, caliber, type of gun, etc., each gun is different. Thus experiences differ as do "best" leads. I have to 20 gauge smoothbore guns, a Centermark F.D.C. and a TVM Early Virginia smooth rifle. I bought the FDC from a moderator on another, now defunct, forum, who had shot the gun plenty and told me his pet load for the gun, it shot so well and just as he said it would that I never tried any other loading than the patched ball load he told me.
When I bought the smooth rifle I got no such load info with it, so, I tried the patched ball load the FDC likes and figured it would be even better now that I had a rear sight. Wrong. Shot okay groups, but certainly not better. So I tried different tighter patches ball combos and varying powder charges, mostly getting worse results. Well, remembering many of Spence's writings I tried a wad below and a card above the ball, groups shrank. Slightly larger ball with thin "overshot card" and lubed was below the ball and card over it, groups immediately much better than any patched ball combo tried.
So, a patched ball doesn't always shoot better than a ball and was combo.
That said, I do believe if one is going purely for historical accuracy in a representative portrayal, then was and ball is the way to go, but, I do think that there were some individual instances, especially in the southern rifle culture colonies, or when a rifle were lost and a smoothie was an expedient if temporary replacement, when a patched ball might have been used in a smoothbore. Unfortunately, documentation of any kind, is sorely lacking for these instances.
 
Well, Rat, here's a little item which will prove that you are right about that. And that you are wrong abut that.:)

Background: The English were trying to catch a NA for some infraction and hang him. They let the Chiefs know about that and told them it would be done unless the tribe took care of it, themselves.

The Pennsylvania Gazette
August 30, 1753
The further Conference between his Excellency JAMES GLEN, Esq; Governor of South Carolina, and Malatchi and other Headmen of the Creek Indians.

"...and for that End his Relation had provided himself with a Pistol, which he kept concealed under his Blanket, but by his Motion in Dancing the Bullet had dropt out, however he wounded him slightly with the Wadding and Powder; he, conscious of the Crime he had committed, and finding that his Life was aimed at for Satisfaction to the English, immediately fled into the Woods, and hid himself in a hollow Tree...."

So, you are right, a wadded ball in a pistol could be jarred loose.

And, you are wrong, they did use wadding in pistols.

Spence
Absolutely brilliant Spence! How do you find this stuff? Well done.
Keith.
 
Good point on being able to use most anything for wadding. I was kind of wondering how they could use up so much of a valuable commodity such as cloth, or even old blankets. But, the amount of cloth to patch a ball in a rifle is much less that what it would take to make a wad, and I would think a skilled rifleman would have to have a ample supply of patch material, same as powder and lead, and flints. I don't think the amount of patch material to keep a rifle running amounts to that much. But that begs the question, what was the most common wad material used? Tow? Cedar bark? Moss? Dirty underwear? Did they wear underwear?? And if so, did they document their underwear. :)
Their underwear was their shirt Rat, it was made long enough to tuck between the legs( certainly up until the mid 18th century). There have been sketchy references to draws, but nothing specific to suggest that these were underpants as we know them today. Earlier in history I believe there were women's underwear, but in the 18th century it was frowned upon claiming that it was unhealthy.
https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2013/01/french-clothing-in-new-world-part-three.html
https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/07/bra-not-modern-invention-15th-century.html
Keith.
 
While it may not be HC/PC to load patched round balls in a smoothie, ill still do it that way when i build one. From just about all accounts i have read and heard, thats method leads to the best performance/accuracy. In the end that matters greatly to me. Maybe its only an inch difference in grouping, but ill still want that inch. Lol
 
Like I said, I will believe it when I read the documentation. There is too much assuming & guessing in Living History, I prefer to stick with the facts when documentation is available.
I agree that someone MAY have used patching if they were using patches in a rifle, but then would a rifleman change to using a smoothbore? I don't know.

"In firing with ball it is observed, the better the ball fits the piece, or the less windage there is, the greater will be the force of the discharge".

"If the ball in it's passage out, rubs against the left side of the barrel,it will whirl towards that side, & as the right side of the ball will therefore turn up against the air during it's flight' the resistance of the air will become greatest on the right side....."
An Essay On Shooting 1789.
Keith.
Loup,
Very interesting to know that at the time of the writing they knew the ballistic value of how the ball was loaded.
I'm new to the smoothbore and am just now dabbling in paper cartridges, At least the making of them as I n
haven't taken them to the range to test yet.
I will try and pay attention to how I load them after reading this thread!
Thanks for starting it!
 
While it may not be HC/PC to load patched round balls in a smoothie, ill still do it that way when i build one. From just about all accounts i have read and heard, thats method leads to the best performance/accuracy. In the end that matters greatly to me. Maybe its only an inch difference in grouping, but ill still want that inch. Lol

IMG_20141231_210027.jpg
IMG_20150822_174942_274-1.jpg
IMG_20150820_175245_105.jpg

Which load would you fine tune, regulate sights for, then hunt with?
 
Their underwear was their shirt Rat, it was made long enough to tuck between the legs( certainly up until the mid 18th century). There have been sketchy references to draws, but nothing specific to suggest that these were underpants as we know them today. Earlier in history I believe there were women's underwear, but in the 18th century it was frowned upon claiming that it was unhealthy.
https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2013/01/french-clothing-in-new-world-part-three.html
https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/07/bra-not-modern-invention-15th-century.html
Keith.
Seems to me they used up their shirt-tails and underwear on wads and patches.
 
Well Gents, I am back with the quotation from Colonel George Hanger, from his book "To All Sportsmen" 1814.

I had stated sometime back in this thread that the Colonel had mentioned using balls sewn up in greased linen in his double sporting. (shot) gun. Here it is;

"Shooting Back.
I have heard that sportsmen have had their dogs shot.
There is a very heavy penalty for shooting a qualified man's dog.
But I swear, by Heaven, that however heavy the penalty may be, that would not satisfy me;
For that I would instantly shoot his horse, and stand prepared with the other barrel to defend my own person;
and I always go prepared with a few bullets sewn up in greased linen; a ball is quickly rammed down; and a patched, greased
ball will shoot pretty near as true as a rifle, to a distance of seventy or eighty yards, if not a hundred."

All the best,
Richard.

PS,
I am not saying this is a method I use. I use wads in my smoothbores, but it Does show that patched balls were Sometimes used.
Brokenock,
V nice groups!
 
Last edited:
Well Gents, I am back with the quotation from Colonel George Hanger, from his book "To All Sportsmen" 1814.

I had stated sometime back in this thread that the Colonel had mentioned using balls sewn up in greased linen in his double sporting. (shot) gun. Here it is;

"Shooting Back.
I have heard that sportsmen have had their dogs shot.
There is a very heavy penalty for shooting a qualified man's dog.
But I swear, by Heaven, that however heavy the penalty may be, that would not satisfy me;
For that I would instantly shoot his horse, and stand prepared with the other barrel to defend my own person;
and I always go prepared with a few bullets sewn up in greased linen; a ball is quickly rammed down; and a patched, greased
ball will shoot pretty near as true as a rifle, to a distance of seventy or eighty yards, if not a hundred."

All the best,
Richard.

PS,
I am not saying this is a method I use. I use wads in my smoothbores, but it Does show that patched balls were Sometimes used.
Brokenock,
V nice groups!

Richard, that is a GREAT quote. Thank You.

We should remember that Col. Hanger was interested in Rifles even before the AWI, where he learned more about them both from his time earlier in the AWI as a Captain with the German Light Infantry and later as a Cavalry Officer. He probably saw German Riflemen using leather patched balls in their Jäeger type rifles. He was likely or even probably aware of the use of greased/stitched balls used in Baker Rifles.

Here is an example of someone who knew of rifles and decided to load his fowler like one with a Leather Patched Ball. So it was done in the period, though like others, I wish we could have one or more examples of use here in the Colonies and perhaps most likely by other German or German influenced Riflemen at first?

Gus
 
I would point out that it seems frontiers man were picky about the cloth they fed their guns. Boone is recorded buying 400 count linen for his shooting. This was for his rifle gun of course.
 
I read an old account long ago that mentioned tucking a round ball into the finger-tips of kid gloves and cutting them off to be loaded in Smoothbores.
I think it may have been about hunting in Canada(?)

I have had the most consistent accurascy in my light fusil with pat & ball, and wiping with a dampened (not saturated) patch between shots.

My Charleville shot well w/loose ball over wadding, but there is one thing the theorists of "balls chattering off the walls of the barrel" , or "contacting the left side of the bore and spinning to the left" haven't bothered to notice, and that is that a twist of paper rammed down the bore and tamped hard down on the powder with a loose ball and top wad will sometimes leave a barely damaged wad down-range that shows the the wadding "cups" around the base of the bullet almost like a sabot.
Even if the ball drags on the barrel wall, I doubt than "spin" is imparted, & IMCO, the ball had been well-centered in the bore.

As to patched balls not being documented, ok, but if a man was stuck with 24 ga. Balls and a 20ga. Gun, a heavy patch of canvas or leather would be bound to suggest itself.
If I were young & fit, the "experimental archeology" approach of a couple years in the woods dependent upon my smoothbore , snares & dead falls for all my meat would sort real-world from pedantic chaff ;-)
Sadly, that is not an option for me.
 
That's a good citation, Richard, thanks.

I'd very much like that source for my database if you have it handy.

Spence
From Audubon I don’t have the book anymore. We moved from our house in Arkansas in the country to a townhouse in the city due to my wife’s health and most of my library I had to get rid of
 
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