A bag question for the PC stitch counters

[brazosland]

I have a bag I really enjoy using. See pics below. It’s a Virginia style bag, but has a small hatchet attached to the back which is perfect for use cleaning a deer or breaking up small kindling.

Problem is I just can’t figure what time period to place this in…. I have rifles that are very early 1760s style to late fur-trade percussion guns.

The Virginia styling is obviously early. Is the attached hatchet offensive to that time period? Alternatively, would this style bag be seen in the 1840’s?

I strive for historical accuracy to the degree that I can, and within my means, and I hope to attend some juried events back East before I die.

Thoughts, opinions and ridicule are all equally welcome!

 

[brazosland]

Subtle flex with my .62 cal half-stock flint Hawkin Gun, La Reyna…

 

[Brokennock]

I could be off on this but just based on the pictures provided and comparing to period paintings and descriptions, I think the rivets and rings are more of an issue for a pre-revolution time frame than the hatchet.

Out of my own curiosity, how has this carry method worked out for you? I am struggling to find a way to carry my 'hawk that i am happy with. On the rare occasion I wear a "hunting shirt" with a sash, I do like it slipped in the sash behind my back, but then I have to remove it to sit. I've toyed with the idea of a shoulder slung carrier, or a sheath attached to my bag of various items slung onbthe opposite side from my shot pouch. I didn't like having my knife on my bag. With the length of my hawk handle I have concerns in carrying it like yours regarding it bumping my legs as I walk and climb over things or beung a problem when I sit and watch for a spell.

 

[springfield art]

I have a bag I really enjoy using. See pics below. It’s a Virginia style bag, but has a small hatchet attached to the back which is perfect for use cleaning a deer or breaking up small kindling.

Problem is I just can’t figure what time period to place this in…. I have rifles that are very early 1760s style to late fur-trade percussion guns.

The Virginia styling is obviously early. Is the attached hatchet offensive to that time period? Alternatively, would this style bag be seen in the 1840’s?

I strive for historical accuracy to the degree that I can, and within my means, and I hope to attend some juried events back East before I die.

Thoughts, opinions and ridicule are all equally welcome!

View attachment 200394View attachment 200395View attachment 200396

Beautiful flintlock! I'll get back to you after I finish counting all the stitches in about 3 days!

 

[brazosland]

I could be off on this but just based on the pictures provided and comparing to period paintings and descriptions, I think the rivets and rings are more of an issue for a pre-revolution time frame than the hatchet.

Out of my own curiosity, how has this carry method worked out for you? I am struggling to find a way to carry my 'hawk that i am happy with. On the rare occasion I wear a "hunting shirt" with a sash, I do like it slipped in the sash behind my back, but then I have to remove it to sit. I've toyed with the idea of a shoulder slung carrier, or a sheath attached to my bag of various items slung onbthe opposite side from my shot pouch. I didn't like having my knife on my bag. With the length of my hawk handle I have concerns in carrying it like yours regarding it bumping my legs as I walk and climb over things or beung a problem when I sit and watch for a spell.

I used to carry a larger knife but as I have gotten older I have learned a small knife is just as useful, even more so actually, than a big one.

In the time period we are all interested there were (in my opinion) fighting knives and utility knives. I have some large knives (riflemans knifes) and smaller patch knives. The Patch knives clean my deer now. This knife, made by our own Tallpine cleaned all my deer this year.

My dad, in the 60’s carried a small 5” blade fixed knife, it’s my sons now, and I spent my whole life carrying my 7” Buck #119 and 6 to 8” Bowies with two inch wide blades wondering how he made do with that tiny knife…but, here I am. Wisdom is the fruit of the journey.

That bag and hatchet carry easily. I wear my bag high under my arm, making it easy to run, so that 10” handle doesn’t get in the way at all. The head is a little thick. A Ft Megs style head would be MUCH better.

I have a Virginia axe I got from Clay Smiths site. My other two hawks have spikes (for fighting) and I carry them hunting. The axe I will carry in my sash, the two below I carry in a leather loop that I admit I had made based on one in the Revenant (I know, “Burn the Witch!”), but it seems to work well and they disappear for me unless I sit down. But I have learned to reach for them before sitting just as I would for a pistol in a belt or sash.

My two spike hawks that I carry in the belt loop below. I’m very satisfied with this arrangement. Just need a wounded hog to test the gear in a final rush of historical accuracy…

 

[LongWalker]

Ooh! Stitch-counting bags! Having put >150k miles on my vehicles in the 10 or so years I was traveling the trans-Mississippi area to get info on bags that had some actual provenance, do I count?

I've never seen fringe like that on a bag that could be solidly dated prior to 1850. I've never seen rivets and rings on the strap attachment that wasn't a repair, and every one of those bags that I can recall was machine sewn. In the west at least, knives attached to the back of the bag are unusual-to-rare, and hatchets almost unheard of. But I know of almost no one who would gig you on any of those points, and it seems to suit the way you use the bag

There is the other approach, that of copying one of the rare bags that can be dated. My oldest personal bag, for example, is a copy of a bag that has provenance to Ohio in the 1790s. I copied the bag as it is, repairs and all. After more than 25 years of living with it, I've come to the conclusion that the original designer/maker was an idiot and the purchaser a fool, who probably found the ignominious death he deserved. But it is relatively PC. . . . The idea has struck me at times that perhaps the bag was a homemade copy of a professionally-made bag, and that I should try copying it and making the obvious corrections, as perhaps it was pre-repairs and all. Then I remember that even that wouldn't fix everything I hate about the bag.

I'm gradually making a bag to go with my Leman, a copy of a bag with provenance to the 1830s. Only a single-pouch, but it avoids everything I hate about the other bag. Maybe I'll make 2.

 

[Dale Lilly]

I have a bag I really enjoy using. See pics below. It’s a Virginia style bag, but has a small hatchet attached to the back which is perfect for use cleaning a deer or breaking up small kindling.

Problem is I just can’t figure what time period to place this in…. I have rifles that are very early 1760s style to late fur-trade percussion guns.

The Virginia styling is obviously early. Is the attached hatchet offensive to that time period? Alternatively, would this style bag be seen in the 1840’s?

I strive for historical accuracy to the degree that I can, and within my means, and I hope to attend some juried events back East before I die.

Thoughts, opinions and ridicule are all equally welcome! . . . . and Jealousy? Dale

View attachment 200394View attachment 200395View attachment 200396

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I could be off on this but just based on the pictures provided and comparing to period paintings and descriptions, I think the rivets and rings are more of an issue for a pre-revolution time frame than the hatchet.

Out of my own curiosity, how has this carry method worked out for you? I am struggling to find a way to carry my 'hawk that i am happy with. On the rare occasion I wear a "hunting shirt" with a sash, I do like it slipped in the sash behind my back, but then I have to remove it to sit. I've toyed with the idea of a shoulder slung carrier, or a sheath attached to my bag of various items slung onbthe opposite side from my shot pouch. I didn't like having my knife on my bag. With the length of my hawk handle I have concerns in carrying it like yours regarding it bumping my legs as I walk and climb over things or beung a problem when I sit and watch for a spell.

Couple of loops on the forward strap of your possibles bag?

 

[brazosland]

Ooh! Stitch-counting bags! Having put >150k miles on my vehicles in the 10 or so years I was traveling the trans-Mississippi area to get info on bags that had some actual provenance, do I count?

I've never seen fringe like that on a bag that could be solidly dated prior to 1850. I've never seen rivets and rings on the strap attachment that wasn't a repair, and every one of those bags that I can recall was machine sewn. In the west at least, knives attached to the back of the bag are unusual-to-rare, and hatchets almost unheard of. But I know of almost no one who would gig you on any of those points, and it seems to suit the way you use the bag

There is the other approach, that of copying one of the rare bags that can be dated. My oldest personal bag, for example, is a copy of a bag that has provenance to Ohio in the 1790s. I copied the bag as it is, repairs and all. After more than 25 years of living with it, I've come to the conclusion that the original designer/maker was an idiot and the purchaser a fool, who probably found the ignominious death he deserved. But it is relatively PC. . . . The idea has struck me at times that perhaps the bag was a homemade copy of a professionally-made bag, and that I should try copying it and making the obvious corrections, as perhaps it was pre-repairs and all. Then I remember that even that wouldn't fix everything I hate about the bag.

I'm gradually making a bag to go with my Leman, a copy of a bag with provenance to the 1830s. Only a single-pouch, but it avoids everything I hate about the other bag. Maybe I'll make 2.

Fabulous post Longwalker, thank you.

I could cut the fringe, but it’s unobtrusive, so I won’t. The rings and rivets are easily removed and there is plenty of excess length on the strap.

The Virginia style and your comments about the lack of any real evidence for blades attached to bags in the West seems to answer my question about wether to go Early or Late with this bag.

 

[LongWalker]

Fabulous post Longwalker, thank you.

I could cut the fringe, but it’s unobtrusive, so I won’t. The rings and rivets are easily removed and there is plenty of excess length on the strap.

The Virginia style and your comments about the lack of any real evidence for blades attached to bags in the West seems to answer my question about wether to go Early or Late with this bag.

I saw knives attached to the straps, and a couple inside the bags--but only a couple attached to the back. Lots of folding knives in the bags, but maybe that was just a convenient place to store grandpa's knife.

 

[brazosland]

Ooh! Stitch-counting bags! Having put >150k miles on my vehicles in the 10 or so years I was traveling the trans-Mississippi area to get info on bags that had some actual provenance, do I count?

I've never seen fringe like that on a bag that could be solidly dated prior to 1850. I've never seen rivets and rings on the strap attachment that wasn't a repair, and every one of those bags that I can recall was machine sewn. In the west at least, knives attached to the back of the bag are unusual-to-rare, and hatchets almost unheard of. But I know of almost no one who would gig you on any of those points, and it seems to suit the way you use the bag

There is the other approach, that of copying one of the rare bags that can be dated. My oldest personal bag, for example, is a copy of a bag that has provenance to Ohio in the 1790s. I copied the bag as it is, repairs and all. After more than 25 years of living with it, I've come to the conclusion that the original designer/maker was an idiot and the purchaser a fool, who probably found the ignominious death he deserved. But it is relatively PC. . . . The idea has struck me at times that perhaps the bag was a homemade copy of a professionally-made bag, and that I should try copying it and making the obvious corrections, as perhaps it was pre-repairs and all. Then I remember that even that wouldn't fix everything I hate about the bag.

I'm gradually making a bag to go with my Leman, a copy of a bag with provenance to the 1830s. Only a single-pouch, but it avoids everything I hate about the other bag. Maybe I'll make 2.

My fur-trade persona is actually a family member and the time frame I try to focus on is 1805-1825. Not a small time gap, but not massive either.

Certainly machine sewn bags were more common particularly later in that period and I have an early 1805 set of gear, and a later 1825 set of gear, as I believe my ancestor was likely in the early runs down the Sante Fe Trail.

For the later period I have the rifle and bag below. A .62 half-stock would be just the thing to cross the southern plains.

Just to keep everyone clothed and to stop the screaming before it starts…this is NOT a Hawkin…(but it “could” have been!) The bag is more of a shop made bag, but I did add the knife to the back pocket in a rolled piece of leather. Just made sense to me to grab the bag and have the knife come along as well.

Do you have any opinion on when more “factory” for lack of a better term, bags started to appear in St Louis?

 

[Greyrider]

I’m working on a bag with a hatchet on the back

 

[Dutch7]

This was crafted for me by @Tacitus - well made and the small belt ax rides well in its new home.
I was always straightening/repositioning and generally concerned about losing it in my sash - this solved the issue.

 

[LongWalker]

A machine-sewn bag will post-date the introduction of the sewing machine, so we are talking 1850s at the earliest. Commercially-made bags were available in St. Louis by 1826; I've never tried finding earlier ads.

The bag I"m making for my Leman is a copy of a bag purchased in Independence MO in 1838.

 

[user 48679]

View attachment 200497
This was crafted for me by @Tacitus - well made and the small belt ax rides well in its new home.
I was always straightening/repositioning and generally concerned about losing it in my sash - this solved the issue.

Now, THAT is a cool bag ! ! (me likey)

 

[Brokennock]

I used to carry a larger knife but as I have gotten older I have learned a small knife is just as useful, even more so actually, than a big one.

In the time period we are all interested there were (in my opinion) fighting knives and utility knives. I have some large knives (riflemans knifes) and smaller patch knives. The Patch knives clean my deer now. This knife, made by our own Tallpine cleaned all my deer this year.

View attachment 200400View attachment 200401

My dad, in the 60’s carried a small 5” blade fixed knife, it’s my sons now, and I spent my whole life carrying my 7” Buck #119 and 6 to 8” Bowies with two inch wide blades wondering how he made do with that tiny knife…but, here I am. Wisdom is the fruit of the journey.

That bag and hatchet carry easily. I wear my bag high under my arm, making it easy to run, so that 10” handle doesn’t get in the way at all. The head is a little thick. A Ft Megs style head would be MUCH better.

I have a Virginia axe I got from Clay Smiths site. My other two hawks have spikes (for fighting) and I carry them hunting. The axe I will carry in my sash, the two below I carry in a leather loop that I admit I had made based on one in the Revenant (I know, “Burn the Witch!”), but it seems to work well and they disappear for me unless I sit down. But I have learned to reach for them before sitting just as I would for a pistol in a belt or sash.

My two spike hawks that I carry in the belt loop below. I’m very satisfied with this arrangement. Just need a wounded hog to test the gear in a final rush of historical accuracy…

View attachment 200407View attachment 200408

I'm with you on the small knives. I generally prefer to keep as much of my hunting and outdoor activities as p.c./h.c. as I can. I really like some p.c. knives, but, my "go to," knives are small modern knives,

The top and bottom ones especially. At least one of the two is with me all the time....
Admittedly,

The Kelgin is "the one." Fits my hand nicely, excellent balance, incredible edge, and some sentimental value (I know this is stupid to some folks). From dressing squirrels and pheasants to deer, cutting my steak or dried sausage on the trail, it's perfect.
I wish I could find a mid-18th century knife that works as well for me.

 

[Artificer]

My fur-trade persona is actually a family member and the time frame I try to focus on is 1805-1825. Not a small time gap, but not massive either.

Certainly machine sewn bags were more common particularly later in that period and I have an early 1805 set of gear, and a later 1825 set of gear, as I believe my ancestor was likely in the early runs down the Sante Fe Trail.

Do you have any opinion on when more “factory” for lack of a better term, bags started to appear in St Louis?

Please understand I'm not being critical, but rather trying to share information that you and others may like.

OK, sewing machines were not invented until the late 1840's in France or the early 1850's in America, so a machine sewn factory bag would have been too late for either of your periods.

The earliest factory in America I know of that made leather items was set up in Norfolk, VA in 1747. They had 17 workers and that would have been seen as a good size factory even by English standards of the day. They made "ready made" shoes and boots in various sizes. However, I don't think they made commercial Shot Pouches/Bags for civilians, though they of course had the skills to have done so. It is possible they made military Cartouche/Cartridge Boxes and Pouches under contract during the FIW, though.

Shot Pouches/Bags or Hunting Pouches/Bags up to and during your two periods were either home made or Professionally made. Professionally made (commercial) pouches/bags were usually made by Saddlers or to a lesser degree by Cobblers or others in the leather working trades. The overall quality/"fanciness" of one's Shot Pouches/Bags or Hunting Pouches/Bags was up to how much the customer could afford, though professionally made pouches of course could have been rather plain.

So the answer to your question basically is how much could your ancestor afford and was willing to spend on his Shot/Hunting Pouch or Bag, if he did not have the skills and tools to make it himself? This because he would have had access to a professionally made bag even in some frontier areas.

Gus

 

[Rawhide67]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

 

[Artificer]

One more thought, if your ancestor came through what is now Louisiana or Texas towards the Santa Fe trail and had his pouch made locally, it likely would have had at least some Spanish influence, as they already had a long tradition of making leather goods by then.

Gus

 

[French Colonial]

I'm not in to the PC HC stuff, are there actually people counting stitches on shooting bags?

Not in the group of people that I hang with (Getting fewer all the time) but if your period of interest is lets say 1740 in Prairie du Rocher near Kaskaskia then some things are out of place, Brass rivets and such.

No one in my group is going to call you on it, usually only if you ask for an opinion.