72 cal Pedersoli Double rifle - new purchase and testing - custom bullet

[buckstix]

Hello All,

When I discovered a 72 cal Pedersoli Double rifle being offered for sale for only $675, I couldn't believe no one jumped on it before me. Well, I jumped because $675 is a super bargain.
.
.
.

.
.
.
These rifles usually sell for $1200 - $1600. Here are some examples; Dixie currently has one for sale for $1550, Cherry's lists them as special order for $1470, and Safari Outfitters had one for $1295. Almost double the selling price of $675.
.
.
.

.
.
.
After I purchased the rifle, and while waiting for its delivery, I designed a special conical bullet for it and ordered a mold. I designed it so that I could cast both sold base and hollow base bullets. It arrived about the same time as the rifle.
.
.
.

.
.
.
Well, I had to wait for the snow to melt so I could finally get out to the range to test my newly acquired Pedersoli 72 cal Black Powder Double Rifle. Recoil was stout, but totally acceptable.

First I tested the 535g Hollow Base bullets and was very pleased with the results. (see below)

This target was shot using only one of the folding sights. Although the 2 sights are thought to be used separately, one for each barrel, the 2 sights are actually used to zero the rifle for 2 different ranges, much like the multi-leaf folding sights on a conventional double rifle.

Next I tried the 695g Solid base bullets to see how they compared.
.
.
.

.
.
.
Well, it looks like this rifle likes the 695g bullets a little bit better than the 535g ones.

Slightly lower velocity of the heavier bullets, with 30g less powder, equals only about 4 ft/lbs more recoil energy, that being 66 ft/lbs vs 62 ft/lbs. I'm very pleased with how this turned out and intend to get rid of those ugly "adjustable" factory sights and replace them with a set of conventional 2-leaf sights.

With either bullet, I'm ready for Wisconsin's 2019 Muzzle-Loader season this Fall.

Your comments are welcome.
.
.
.

 

[BigSkyRambler]

I almost bought that, too, but then realized I would have to sell something I maybe like more. You got a great deal.

 

[Rat]

I am a little impressed when someone goes around just designing bullets. I assume you might know a bit about bullets. !!!

But just out of curiosity, why did you choose a bullet over the ball? Again just curious, I prefer a bullet in my .58 caliber rifles, and round ball in my .62 caliber Jeager...so I don't ask because I am a round-ball only guy. I don't know much about Wisconsin, but didn't think there are moose or Elk there....??

Anyhow....wow!

 

[BIGBEAR]

Very interesting, seems like the gun is regulated well with your load at 50 yards ..
Have you tried .715 round ball - .018 patch .. 120 gr 2F ..?

I have one also , and want to try some different loads ..I like your bullet design..

 

[Rat]

I like the design also, in some ways like a REAL, but I like the wider bearing surfaces. That bullet in .58 caliber, weighing in at 500 grains would be nice. So what did it cost to have the mold made?

 

[Phil Coffins]

Very nice! If the states I hunt black powder seasons allowed double barrel gun I’d have to have one. Good looking bullet too.

 

[THBailey]

Took a look at the Pedersoli web site and it looks like this gun has a 1-75 rate of twist? They recommend a 500gr round ball.

 

[Howie1968]

I have the same rifle,i use patched roundballs and I do have some 1,000 grain conicals for it. the conicals I only shoot at pig hunting ranges 20 yards, however the roundballs im shooting quite good at 50. awesome work designing that bullet

 

[Eterry]

I've never designed a bullet, probably never will, but that one looks short in length and light-weight compared to mine ball and conicals I cast in a 58 caliber. The .715 RB for my friends 12 bore weighs 545grs, the 58 cal 575213 old style is a 460gr, and the 575213 improved weighs 500gr. That being said, its hard to argue with the accuracy in the last target!

Howie, what kind of accuracy do you get from your 1000gr slugs?

NECG has folding leaf rear sights for express rifles.

 

[Britsmoothy]

That is great performance.
It's amazing how pedersoli say a max of 89 grain in the current shotgun version which is basically the same gun! Always thought of it as a starting load myself.
The older pedersoli doubles that are lighter should not go over 89 in my opinion.
I am very impressed.
B.

 

[buckstix]

I almost bought that, too, but then realized I would have to sell something I maybe like more. You got a great deal.

Hello BigSkyRambler,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I did get a great deal. That's the only reason I bought it. I wasn't looking for a BP double, but I couldn't resist the great price.

I am a little impressed when someone goes around just designing bullets. I assume you might know a bit about bullets. !!!

But just out of curiosity, why did you choose a bullet over the ball? Again just curious, I prefer a bullet in my .58 caliber rifles, and round ball in my .62 caliber Jeager...so I don't ask because I am a round-ball only guy. I don't know much about Wisconsin, but didn't think there are moose or Elk there....??

Anyhow....wow!

Hello Rat,
Thanks for the reply.
I've designed many bullets over the years, for both muzzle-loaders and cartridge guns. I'd rather shoot bullets than balls because In my experience their easier to load and more accurate. As you can see from my drawing, I designed the bullet with a 3 diameter taper. The base band is bore dia so its easy to start squarely when inserted into the muzzle. The second band is .002 larger in diameter to engrave slightly with minimum engraving. The third band is full groove diameter to engrave completely when driven into the barrel. The wide grooves allow plenty of lube and lots of room to scrape away fowling from the previous shot. The wide lands ensure straight seating. In addition, I designed the bullet with a blunt flat nose because once the bullet is fully seated on the powder, I "bounce" the loading rod until it bounces back. This uniforms the powder density and fully expands and locks the bullet into the rifling so that the bullet in the second barrel doesn't move forward under the heavy recoil when the first barrel in fired. Unfortunately, we only have deer and bear in Wisconsin.

Very interesting, seems like the gun is regulated well with your load at 50 yards ..
Have you tried .715 round ball - .018 patch .. 120 gr 2F ..?

I have one also , and want to try some different loads ..I like your bullet design..

Hello BIGBEAR,
Thanks for the reply.
I have not tried round balls, and likely will not. I'm satisfied with the performance of the bullets.

I like the design also, in some ways like a REAL, but I like the wider bearing surfaces. That bullet in .58 caliber, weighing in at 500 grains would be nice. So what did it cost to have the mold made?

Hello Rat,
Thanks for the reply.
I purchased the mold from "Accurate Molds". Delivery was only a week at a cost of about $85 in Aluminum. Brass and steel molds are also an option but cost more. This design has been added to their selection on their web page which has about a thousand different bullet designs to choose from.

Very nice! If the states I hunt black powder seasons allowed double barrel gun I’d have to have one. Good looking bullet too.

Hello Phil Coffins,
Thanks for the reply.
I'll only be using it for whitetail deer here in Wisconsin. And maybe a few "paper" African Big Game animals.

Took a look at the Pedersoli web site and it looks like this gun has a 1-75 rate of twist? They recommend a 500gr round ball.

Hello THBailey,
Thanks for the reply.
As stated previous, I prefer bullets over balls. This rifle has a twist rate of 1:86 designed to shoot round balls, so I designed this bullet to be near "one caliber" length, that being only .77" long, so that it would stabilize in the guns slow twist rate. This allows a much heavier bullet than the ball.

I have the same rifle,i use patched roundballs and I do have some 1,000 grain conicals for it. the conicals I only shoot at pig hunting ranges 20 yards, however the roundballs im shooting quite good at 50. awesome work designing that bullet

Hello Howie1968,
Thanks for the reply.
I've found that bullets that are too much longer than "one caliber", in many cases will not stabilize properly and will not shoot very accurate.

I've never designed a bullet, probably never will, but that one looks short in length and light-weight compared to mine ball and conicals I cast in a 58 caliber. The .715 RB for my friends 12 bore weighs 545grs, the 58 cal 575213 old style is a 460gr, and the 575213 improved weighs 500gr. That being said, its hard to argue with the accuracy in the last target!

NECG has folding leaf rear sights for express rifles.

Hello Eterry,
Thanks for the reply.
Like I stated above, this rifle has a twist rate designed for round balls; 1:86". Longer bullets may not stabilize properly. I've seen the NECG sights and will order one soon.

That is great performance.
It's amazing how pedersoli say a max of 89 grain in the current shotgun version which is basically the same gun! Always thought of it as a starting load myself.
The older pedersoli doubles that are lighter should not go over 89 in my opinion.
I am very impressed.
B.

Hello Britsmoothy,
Thanks for the reply.
I've tested up to 160g 3Fg with the 535g hollow base bullets, but settled on the 150g load as being more accurate. I've seen postings where others have loaded up to 180g 3Fg. I post my tests and results for information but... I DO NOT RECOMMEND this data for use in other's rifles. They must test on their own.

 

[BIGBEAR]

Hello Buckstix
I would very much like to try some of your bullets in my Kodiak safari grade..
I checked on " accurate molds " , but did not see this one ..
Is there a mold model number ?
Thanks , Bob

 

[buckstix]

Hello Buckstix
I would very much like to try some of your bullets in my Kodiak safari grade..
I checked on " accurate molds " , but did not see this one ..
Is there a mold model number ?
Thanks , Bob

Hello BIGBEAR,
Thanks for the reply.
My bullet is shown on page 23 - mold number 73-679SN

You will see the notation: "Basis for hollow base nose pour. Hollowing pin must be outsourced"

You will have to make your own base pins if you want to make both solid and hollow base bullets.

If you want just solid base bullets, you can tell them that, and they will make the mold that way. They do not make base pins.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=23
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-679SN-D.png

 

[BIGBEAR]

Thanks for the info .
I see your design 73-679 SN , also looking at 73-780 m...
Do you think band diameter on the 73-780 is to large ? ( .732 .728 .724 ). Pure lead of course..
Not sure of my bore dimensions...
Thanks

 

[buckstix]

Thanks for the info .
I see your design 73-679 SN , also looking at 73-780 m...
Do you think band diameter on the 73-780 is too large ? ( .732 .728 .724 ). Pure lead of course..
Not sure of my bore dimensions...
Thanks

Hello BIGBEAR.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not sure. It's kind of a guess. If the bullet is too large, it will be tight and more difficult to load. You will also see that when you order, you have to specify the mold tolerance; "size +.002" or "size -.002". I chose the "size +.002" for my bullet. Slug you barrel to check the bore and groove diameter. (see below on how I do this with a muzzle loader) I always try to error on the small side by a couple of thousands because you can add a tiny touch of tin to the melt mix to better fill the mold and get a slightly bigger diameter if needed. Or modify the mold with "punch-dots" to keep it from fully closing in order to get a slightly bigger diameter. If its too big to start with, things get complicated.

I slug my muzzle-loader barrels like this. I cut a piece of copper rod about 10" long and slightly smaller than bore diameter so that it can be easily dropped into the barrel. First, put the rod into the barrel, (or 2 rods, one in each barrel so you don't get them mixed up) Second, push a tight fitting paper card wad into the muzzle about 1" deep. Third, pour melted cerrosafe (low melt) into the muzzle and let it cool. Finally, use the copper rod as an internal hammer to bump the 1" plug back out of the muzzle. It may take several "bumps" but eventually the plug will come out. If for some reason it doesn't, apply heat to the low-melt cerrosafe to remove it, and try again. I use low-melt in the 158-190 degree range.

 

[BIGBEAR]

Buckstix
Thank you , I will try to slug my bores..
That's a great idea on how to bump out plug !!
I couldn't figure how to do that with muzzle loader

I too saw your gun for sale , and called them directly.
I wanted to know what the bores looked like ..
I waited one day , and it was sold ...
Congratulations on a great gun ..

Soon I'll test my RB loads , at .60 yards and post results ..
I think Pedersoli claims barrels are regulated at 60 yards ..

I like your results , bullets are printing perfect and not crossing ..
Sometimes it's hard to find a double rifle that groups that well ...

Thanks , Bob

 

[Ronnman]

Hello BIGBEAR,
Thanks for the reply.
My bullet is shown on page 23 - mold number 73-679SN

You will see the notation: "Basis for hollow base nose pour. Hollowing pin must be outsourced"

You will have to make your own base pins if you want to make both solid and hollow base bullets.

If you want just solid base bullets, you can tell them that, and they will make the mold that way. They do not make base pins.

Buckstix
Congrats on the purchase. You got a steal at that price.

How did you go about making the base pin? Could you post a pic of the mold and base pin to give us an idea how they are arranged.

I bought a Pedersoli hollow base bullet mold (shown below) which cast a 624 grain bullet. I have not shot my gun yet, so I don’t have any report as to the accuracy.
Thanks,
Ron

 

[Rat]

I would have thought that having a mold made would be way more expensive than that. The REAL works well in my minie' rifles, better than any minie' ball, (because I use heavy hunting loads) but I'd sure like a slug along the lines of the Buckstix Special, but that would weigh more than the REAL, which comes out of my mold at 456 grains. I mean, if I'm going to tromp around grizz country looking for elk, and packing my ten pound 1861 around all day, and shooting a slug...might as well have a more serious slug. (although I most often hunt with my Jeager, I try to get the 1861 out once in a while, and always take it as a spare rifle) Something close to 500 grains would be ideal for me.

Powder charges in the really big bores, in the neighborhood of 150 grains are not as heavy as they sound. Pressure goes down as bore size goes up. I'm thinking a Pedersoli double 12 gauge shotgun would stand up to the same charge as a Brown Bess...but when shooting shot I'm not sure what the point would be of exceeding 100 grains, unless you wanted really poor patterns. !! Note that 89 grains is only seven grains more than 3 drams, which usually gives best patterns in a 12 bore shotgun. I think that is the reason they came up with 89 grains, unless the wrist of the stock is especially skinny.

Okay Stix, good job, I'm thinking that that slug will kill a deer pretty well.

 

[buckstix]

Buckstix
Thank you , I will try to slug my bores..
That's a great idea on how to bump out plug !!
I couldn't figure how to do that with muzzle loader

I too saw your gun for sale , and called them directly.
I wanted to know what the bores looked like ..
I waited one day , and it was sold ...
Congratulations on a great gun ..

Thanks , Bob

Hello BIGBEAR,
Thanks for the reply.
I started using the "bump-out" method about 40 years ago. So I guess I sort of invented it. Comes from my Mechanical Design Engineering background.

I actually waited a few days after someone posted a "head-up" about the rifle. After researching how much they sell for, I could no longer resist, so I bought it.

Buckstix
Congrats on the purchase. You got a steal at that price.

How did you go about making the base pin? Could you post a pic of the mold and base pin to give us an idea how they are arranged.

I bought a Pedersoli hollow base bullet mold (shown below) which cast a 624 grain bullet. I have not shot my gun yet, so I don’t have any report as to the accuracy.
Thanks,
Ron

HelloRonnman,
Thanks for the reply.
I made the base pins out of solid brass. The pictures below will show the base pins and how they fit into the mold. I made them "friction fit" so they stay in place during casting. The tapered one for the hollow base was a tad loose so I pricked in on 4 sides with a center punch so it wouldn't slip out. However, I still support the base pins on the deck of the bottom pour melting pot so they don't back-out from the weight of the molten lead during the pour. After the sprue has cooled, I knock open the sprue plate, open the mold a about 1/32" and tap it lightly on the top. Within a few seconds, the brass pins will fall free from their own weight. I then open the mold and the bullet will drop out. For the hollow base pin, you have to have quite a bit of taper so that it drops out of the bullet easily. If the sides are too straight, it will stick. I made a customized a needle-nose pliers with curved ends so I can pick up the the hot brass plugs and insert them back into the mold for the next cast.

I'll be interested to hear how the bullets from your mold shoot.

I would have thought that having a mold made would be way more expensive than that. .........
Okay Stix, good job, I'm thinking that that slug will kill a deer pretty well.

Hello Rat,
Thanks for the reply.
Accurate molds ave very reasonably priced. I have about a dozen of their molds for my big-bore double rifles ranging from 416 Rigby up to 700 Nitro Express caliber. I'm sure this will do nicely for deer and bear.

 

[Ronnman]

Buckstix - Thanks for posting the pics of the mold/plugs. I did not expect your plugs to be made from of brass. It apparently works well. I would have though the different metals may expand at different rates.
Ron