.58 caliber loads

[mahkagari]

I've finished my .58 caliber Hawken build and am working on the load. It has a 36" barrel and I'm actually not sure of the rate of twist.

I'm using .570" round balls with .010" lubed patches. At 25 yards I can put balls through the same hole with 60 grains of FFG Pyrodex. At 50 yards it needs 90+ to stay on paper. I'd like to get it up past 100 yards. I've gotten advice that I need to be up around 120gr for that distance. Is that in line with others' experience? I don't see a lot of info about maximum safe loads for that caliber.

I'd also like to get input about packing powder with the ramrod until it bounces. Does that improve accuracy and powder efficiency?

 

[BigAl52]

I use a 570 ball and a .020 patch. Im not sure about the .010 patch idea I don't use that size patch in any of my loads. I also use 100gr of swiss 1 1/2 FG for a hunting load. Al

 

[BrownBear]

I'd also like to get input about packing powder with the ramrod until it bounces. Does that improve accuracy and powder efficiency?

That's right up there with seasoning barrels to improve them somehow. I've seen the ramrod bouncing in movies and nowhere else even among serious target shooters. I'm labeling it Hollywood.

I shoot five 58 calibers with barrels ranging from 22" to 36". At 32" I have to get them up in the neighborhood of 100 grains of 2f to get a "hunting" trajectory out to 100 yards, and truly with the 32" models 110 is better. That's sighted in dead on at 75 yards, which puts them a couple of inches high at 50 and about 5" low at 100 yards. My 36" GRRW Hawken is happiest at 140 grains of 2f, but I'm happiest back down at 120 grains, even if the rifle tips the scale a little over 12#.

As for max safe, that's a judgement call unless you hear different from the barrel maker. My GRRW Hawken's barrel is 1 1/8" at the breech and 1" at the muzzle. Correct or not, my insides start feeling a little "squishy" when I top 120 grains in my 1" barrels, though I know guys who are perfectly happy going higher than my 140 in their 1" barrels. If somehow your barrel comes in at 15/16" like my old Investarm, know that I've never taken it above 100 grains of 2f and don't plan to do so. The steel is getting mighty thin at the various dovetails in the barrel.

I'm surprised that yours performs so well with that .010" patch. Perhaps it's due to the mild charges you've used so far. I'll almost guarantee that you'll have to move up to .015" or .018" as you snort up the loads to avoid shredding patches and killing your accuracy.

 

[mahkagari]

I'm surprised that yours performs so well with that .010" patch. Perhaps it's due to the mild charges you've used so far. I'll almost guarantee that you'll have to move up to .015" or .018" as you snort up the loads to avoid shredding patches and killing your accuracy.

Thanks. I couldn't even get the bullet in with the starter with the .020". I have some .015 I'll try.

 

[pab1]

I'd also like to get input about packing powder with the ramrod until it bounces. Does that improve accuracy and powder efficiency?

I've never believed in bouncing the ramrod. I seat the ball firmly. I've always had excellent accuracy doing this. The key to accuracy is consistency. I think you're taking away from consistency bouncing a ramrod. There's no way to do it exactly the same every time.

When I load ammo for suppository guns I seat the projectile firmly. I don't pound it with a mallet to confirm that its seated. I also don't like the thought of the ramrod slamming into the crown/bore.

Once I have found the charge the guns likes I mark the rod at the muzzle. This just helps confirm the ball is seated. I also use the mark to check throughout the day while hunting that the ball hasn't moved off the powder charge. I've never had that happen but I still like to check.

 

[rich pierce]

I find it's always helpful to study fired patches. Barrels vary a lot but in my square groove .58 Getz barrel a .570 ball can be loaded with a 0.018" patch. I have radiussed the crown. Once short started and confirmed to the grooves it's not excessively hard to load. Using 0.015 or thinner patches results in blown patches and poorer accuracy in my gun, a flintlock, shooting 80 grains of FFG.

 

[SDSmlf]

May want to try Dutch's system to help step you through the load development process. http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Personally, the fun factor starts to go away in the 58 somewhere between 100 and 120 grains of fff Swiss and is completely gone at 140. Have some TCs with a 1 in 60 twist and Bobby Hoyt's rounded bottom rifling. Forget exact patch thickness, but it is around 0.020" compressed. Purchased by the yard a couple of years ago once I found something that worked. Accuracy starts to come around at about 80 grains. Hunting load is around 100 grains. Ok out to 100 yards, but on deer size targets you have to start thinking about trajectory as you approach that distance.

 

[mooman76]

Mine shoots good out to 100y with a .015 patch and 80gr.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm surprised that yours performs so well with that .010" patch. Perhaps it's due to the mild charges you've used so far. I'll almost guarantee that you'll have to move up to .015" or .018" as you snort up the loads to avoid shredding patches and killing your accuracy.

Thanks. I couldn't even get the bullet in with the starter with the .020". I have some .015 I'll try.

If you said what make of barrel it is, I missed it. But some new barrels require a break-in period, and after a couple hundred shots or so they seem to smooth out and loading gets lots easier. At that point you can thicken up the patch a little.

If you've been checking your fired patches and don't see any holes, shreds or cuts, you're already on solid ground and have no reason to let my speculation cause you any extra loading effort! :thumbsup:

 

[Grimord]

I agree with Brown Bear regarding patching and loads. Both of my 58's like loads in the 100-120gr range of 2f with .018 patches. 100yds is what i consider maximum for me. The trajectory of the 570 round ball begins to drop excessively, so you would have to know the range to within 10 yards and your trajectory in order to make killing shots on game.

As for bouncing the ram rod on the load. I've seen it done, but can find no reason to do this. I see you are using pyrodex for your loads. The manufacturer recommends a compressed load to ensure complete powder burn. A steady consistent pressure on the ram rod should give you this. When I used pyrodex in my guns, I used to put the toe of the stock on my toe when loading and applied pressure on the ram rod until I felt slight pain. I felt that was some what consistent for me.

 

[Dr5x]

I am seeking information here.
I was told that after a certain point. increasing the powder charge becomes counterproductive because the heavier pressure tends to blow the lead out of shape, almost liquifies it..
I had a subscriber who dropped a deer . without thinking, with a .32 or ..36 caliber rifle while squirrel hunting, using a load of 36 grains of whatever. so I know extreme power is always necessary.
Are there any hunters out there who consistently load with over 110 grains or above?
I would figure a .58 caliber rifle would require something like 94 grains up to maybe 90/

A gentleman who showed up at the range with a Pennsylvania style rifle that was enlarged about 30 or 405 above standard size was firing at 50yards with charges of 150 grains and could not get on the paper. The noise was incredible;e and I figured the lead ball was probably vaporized..
It isn't the power behind the ball that does the job so much as the placement of the shot. Or so I have been told.

Dutch

 

[will5a1]

Dutch - I'd say that increasing the caliber won't compensate for poor marksmanship when hunting, but I appreciate my .58's shooting roundballs with heavy charges. I have two "sporting" (non-military) .58's, both shoot well with heavy loads, and my experience, albeit limited to whitetail deer, is that a stout .58 load will kill quicker than a lighter caliber hitting the deer in the same spot. I try for a double lung shot, have taken neck and straight on heart shots, and for me the deer go down and stay down better when hit with the .58.

My Navy Arms "Hawken", with a 1 1/8 barrel, prefers at least 120grs of 2f, .570 ball patched with .015 ticking, mink oil lube - the rifle shoots better with much heavier loads, but 2-3" at 50 yards is good enough for me for hunting. The other rifle, with what I believe to be a Douglas barrel, 1" across the flats, groups well for me with 110grs 2f, same patch and ball combo. Neither rifle like lesser charges.

I really don't like tracking shot deer, for me the .58 works best at quickly downing the deer. Others swear by their favorites that work best for them, and are convinced I'm wasting powder and lead, but I know what currently works for me. Up until a few years ago I used a .54, prior to that a .50, but I don't think I'll move up to anything above .58, at least not for deer.

 

[Dr5x]

Wil5a1,
Thank you.
That is the first report I have had regarding a heavier load (120 grains of off)
Yourreason for doing so, the quick kill make enormous sense.
I did have a post some years ago from a Colorado Guide who had welcomed the Maxi Ball but found that the Maxie ball would go through the deer where a round ball would ricochet around in side the deer . He found that they would both kill but the Maxie ball resulted in long after shot tracking. I have had no one else offer that experience.


Dutch Schoultz

 

[rushlake1]

1. shoot real black powder..it can be delivered to your door..no excuses..
2. polish your barrel crown.
3. find a smaller round ball.or pour your own..
4. shoot a thicker tight weave patch.
5. just seat the patch ball down on the powder.
6.shooting 2f goex 110 gr=1550-1600 fps at muzzle
7. shooting 2f Goex 110 gr.= 1150 fps @ 85 yards poi.
shooting 42 in. rice round radius 58 cal flint..
Just keep shooting till the barrel breaks in..

2f swiss shoots good in this barrel also.

find a ball patch combo that leaves a weave imprint on the ball..
pull a loaded ball to inspect.

I could hold 1.5" @ 85 yards...Good enough.

You should thumbprint or clover leaf at 50 yards..

we expect a report when you find your happy load..

 

[nkbj]

What with being a pack rat and thinking golly I might want it someday reckon maybe the 25 year old Green Mountain .58 drop-in will never get fired 'cause the faster twist .58's have worked OK. Even the .62 Hawken only has a 60" twist and it shoots good with 120 grains FFg sneaking up on 1600FPS.
Do the 70" twist GM barrels really only work their best with heavier charges?

 

[BrownBear]

Do the 70" twist GM barrels really only work their best with heavier charges?

Can't speak for every single one of them, but we may be a little unusual up here with 5 of them in the neighborhood including my own. And we all shoot them a fair bit.

A guy who wants to shoot less than about 80 grains of 2f might want to try cutting a deal that allowed him to shoot the barrel first before buying. They don't perform nearly so well with lighter charges as other 58's in the neighborhood. In line with my GRRW Hawken in 58 caliber, they do their tightest grouping when you go the other way and don't really settle down to "clover leaf" groups at 50 yards until you hit or pass 100 grains.

My own is best with 120 grains of 2f Goex, though I don't care about paper-punching tight groups and mostly shoot it with 100 grains for comfort. A 3" group at 50 yards is just fine for my needs, and I don't want the extra recoil for a 1.5-2" group. All my buds' GM 58 barrels are in the same league, and I don't recall a one of them shooting less than 110 grains of 2f.

Another factor here is range. Terrain is really mixed, and there is a fair need to shoot flat enough for the occasional 100 yard shot. Drop below 100 grains and trajectory starts getting pretty loopy out that far. My Investarms 58 caliber with itls skinny 15/16" 1:48 barrel makes me nervous as powder charges go up, so I hold my personal max with that one at 80 grains. I just figure it's my 75 yard gun and live with it. The 80 grain charge leaves it 2-3" high at 50, dead on at 75 and close to 8" low at 100. It's really falling off fast out at 100.

In contrast to the GM 58 drop-ins, the 1:48 Investarms really thrives on lighter charges and clover-leafs at 50 yards with charges as light as 40 grains of 3f. Never tried it lighter, but it's a humdinger small game shooter with those light charges while the GM accuracy at 40 grains means snowshoe hare need to be closer or have much bigger heads. :wink: I have an oddball custom I bought used with a 22" 1:48 Oregon barrel tapered 1 1/8" at the breech to 15/16" at the muzzle. Coincidence or not, it's also a fine light-charge shooter, yet does well with 100 grains, heavy as I've tried.

All 5 of us bought our GM 58 drop-ins less than a year apart, so they likely came from a single production run. It shows me something that all 5 like those heavier charges, but perhaps other production runs would be different. Dunno.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Do the 70" twist GM barrels really only work their best with heavier charges?

I am surprised how little twist rate has been mentioned so far. Barrel length, size across flats have neglible effect on accuracy. Twist rate pretty much dictates 'sweet spot' loads. Slower twist needs heavy charges to tighten groups. I can't speak for .58 cal. but my .54 cal. w/1:72" twist needs north of 120 gr. to give a tight group. And that is more than I am comfortable shooting. Your 1:70" barrel probably will want 100 to 110 gr.

 

[Zonie]

With the title of this topic and all of the talk about using heavy powder loads in these .58's. I think I should mention these heavy powder loads are good for barrels with deep rifling grooves.

A lot of the .58's, in fact, most of them have barrels made for shooting the .58 Minie' balls.

These military rifled muskets have very shallow rifling grooves made for the long Minie' bullets like the ones used in the War Between the States.

The original powder loads for these rifled muskets was 60-70 grains of powder.

Shooting a patched roundball in one of them will often give poor accuracy if powder loads much over 60 grains are used.

The reason for this is the very shallow, .003 deep rifling grooves.

If the barrel has deep rifling grooves like most of the modern barrels that are made for shooting patched roundballs, the rifling grooves will be at least .010 deep.

These deep grooves grab the cloth patch effectively and can use the heavy powder loads mentioned above.

While talking about these deep groove barrels, I'll add, the patch thickness must be thicker than the depth of the rifling.

Folks shooting a .58 caliber, deeply grooved rifled barrel with patches thinner than .012 will usually see poor accuracy and it will get worse as the powder charge is increased.

Happy shooting.

 

[BigAl52]

I have two GM drop ins. One 58 that only had 100 rounds thru it and my 50 is brand new. Both are 1 in 70 twist. I haven't played with the 58 all that much but what I have has been good. 90 grs of 1fg swiss 570 ball and .018 patch and she shoots real good. Yes its 1Fg. Had somer left over from BPCR days and wanted to use it up. Al

 

[BrownBear]

Good catch! Yeah, along with most everyone else I've been talking about barrels with deeper rifling than that intended for minies.

Working with a bud's 58 caliber (Enfield? Springfield? Zoave? Don't recall.), we had to go a really tight patch/ball combo to get good accuracy, especially with heavier charges.