4f as a main powder charge

[shdwlkr]

On another group I am in a member posted this question


4f black powder

i was in the wrong place to ask about this so im putting it here. is it acceptable as a charge behind a roundball? is it dangerous? i have done it with really good results but did it only one day as i was in the unknown. i used 80 grains by volume behind a patched 50 cal round ball. it cracked when fired and was very consistantly accurate and the bore had no need to wipe between rounds. again is it safe? also i think i read once that using it in a 45 long colt case ruined some nice saa colt frames. im more interested in a side lock precussion rifle. please give me all the input you can, even pressures as compaired to 3f or 2f. thanks before hand.

I posted basically 4f was never meant to be a main charge. Your knowledge would help me educate this person thanks

 

[azmntman]

Only main charge I would consider is my .31 pocket (holds like 12 gr?) or possibly my ROA. Have done neither yet, likley try the pocket soon, likley never try in the ROA. Sometimes ya just gotta listen :hmm:

 

[Grumpa]

I have read where original blackpowder revolver cartridges were broken down, and the powder in them was either 4Fg or something very like it.

Now, that powder was encased in a copper/brass casing, and fired by a primer that was maybe (?) hotter than a percussion cap (I don't know). The first primers were internal, but soon became what we use today. I never read of blown primers being a problem back then.

I am curious to try 4Fg in my Uberti Remington .44, working up gradually in powder charge. But I will wait until my chronograph is working, and I will be looking for the hammer blowing back to half-cock as a sign of pressure. (With the typical repro light mainspring, that should be a safe indicator that pressures are rising while still not dangerous.)

In the meantime, I will be following this thread, and looking elsewhere as well, for more information!

Richard/Grumpa

 

[rodwha]

Listen to who? Those from the 1960's and later or those prior such as the ones who made paper cartridges during the Civil War and afterwards who loaded the first cartridges?

I'll never attempt to convince anyone to go against manufacturer's lawyered warnings, but history certainly tells a much different story.

 

[rodwha]

With Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 there shouldn't be much need to use anything finer than 3F outside of small caliber gun using a small charge.

Now Goex 4F, being fairly weak, is a bit of another story. But why would one opt for a weak 4F powder when a more energetic 3F powder is available?

But then take note of the Swiss powder cans and what they're meant for:



And the old Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook:



A reduced charge of 33 grns of 3F T7 pushed a .457" ball much faster than a 37 grn charge of 4F Goex...

 

[azmntman]

Listen to who? Those from the 1960's and later or those prior such as the ones who made paper cartridges during the Civil War and afterwards who loaded the first cartridges?

I'll never attempt to convince anyone to go against manufacturer's lawyered warnings, but history certainly tells a much different story.

Those on the forum with what I consider greater knowledge than me (**not all apply**), the manufactures etc etc.

Some heated debates here about using even 3f in a .50 and above (which I do :grin: ).

:thumbsup:

 

[nhmoose]

For revolvers 1973 era Lyman Black powder handbook, Ken Ramage editor has loads for revolvers.

Folks here don't like reference as I was rebutted on it. My 4fg is of that era as 4fg goes a long way as prime.

Make your own decision.

 

[George]

I owned a Ruger Old Army for several years before it was stolen, bought it new in the late 1970s. The owner's manual which came with the pistol said, on page 9:

“Black Powder is usually classified by powder grain size, with “Fg” being the largest granulation and “FFFFg” being the smallest granulation normally available. Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the Old Army; however, “FFFg” is the preferred grain size.”

And on page 11, “It is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for the bullet. This maximum load is not usually the most accurate load, however.”

I lI liked to shoot at a 100 yard 12" gong at a local range, and I sometimes loaded 40 grains FFFFg when I shot at that.

I never blew up.

Spence

 

[rodwha]

Some of the cartridges from pre 1900 were loaded with finer granulation than 4F.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I think along those lines. I've combined the dregs of cans of FF, FFF, and FFFF Goex into a single container to finish off the powder in one range session. I would say the mixture was about equal parts - 1/3 each. I used 20 grains of the mixture in a .36 Navy and it shot about the same as 20 grains of just FFF, perhaps slightly dirtier to clean. No ill effects to the revolver.

 

[Scota4570]

"again is it safe?"

NO.

 

[rodwha]

So I guess ole Bill just didn't know squat, huh? And I suppose someone needs to go to Europe and explain to them that they are jeopardizing the population with their powders and should follow the American's version.

And don't mind history either. We all know how they had catastrophic failures every day. Maybe our good friend, the museum curator is a charlatan and a liar, and despite being a BP enthusiast owning and shooting a plethora of arms wouldn't know granulations of powder from pepper.

I'm curious what one calls those who refuse to acknowledge history and proof?

 

[rdstrain49]

Personally I think Ruger was a firearms and business genius. There are however a huge number of internet experts that as you say "don't know squat".

 

[rodwha]

"Internet experts" and historians and those who researched for themselves are two very different things. Not to mention Lyma and Swiss powder. Seems counterintuitive to say they are the fools who don't know what they are talking about. Seems the evidence to the contrary is from some guys who decided to write a book giving no references for their opinion...

Quite frankly it astounds me that there are so many that brush aside historical facts (as well as modern day facts to their contrary) and stand so tall announcing to all how anyone els is such a fool.

 

[coloradoclyde]

In your opinion Ruger was therefor one of those that didn't know squat? I don't want to put words in your mouth... I'd prefer it come straight from your own if that's what you have to say.

That's the way I read it....The real geniuses were the guys that originally designed their guns....Colt, Browning, Williams, Mauser etc.....
All that said; I do like many of Ruger's guns....Probably because they remind me of the originals...

 

[coloradoclyde]

"again is it safe?"

NO.

Good answer!.... :thumbsup:

 

[rodwha]

Are those "internet experts" the same ones that defy history and facts? I'm a bit curious I must say...

 

[rodwha]

Colt worked with Hazard's Pistol Powder for their paper cartridges and used 4F powder equivalent to Swiss. So, according to you then, even Colt was one of these foolish people?

I'm really at a loss for why a group of people who claim to stand for traditions denies and balks at history in this respect. What, because some people in the 1960's wrote a few books makes it all true? Hardly historical...

 

[coloradoclyde]

The OP'S post was about using 4f in a rifle ......wasn't it?

im more interested in a side lock precussion rifle.

 

[rodwha]

Sure enough. But weren't you just replying to its use in pistols as well, which is where the thread wandered to? Come now CC...