36" or 42" TVM Fowler

[Greebe]

I decided that I am going to get one of the TVM Fowler kits for Christmas and need to decide a few things.

First, should I get a 36" or 42" barrel? I am leaning more towards a 36" just for maneuverability in the woods. However it seems a lot of people prefer the longer barrels especially for shooting shot. I will probably be using equally for both so that is a consideration.

The other decision is whether or not to get steel. It is a little cheaper and I kind of like the looks of it better. However I would like this rifle to be as historically correct as possible. Seems like I have read that brass was more common. Was steel even used at that time?

Thanks a lot for your help,
Greebe

 

[hanshi]

Mine is 38" x 20ga and the mountings are steel. I really like this gun and would have been quite satisfied with a 36". Unless you specify a thin, tapered barrel I'd hesitate to recommend a 42".

 

[Greebe]

Thanks. Originally I was wanting one of the short barreled versions that are often sold as a Canoe Gun, but started thinking otherwise. I want to be able to shoot shot out of is as much as I will shoot PRB.

Probably the 36" would be good for me. If I wanted one shorter than that I could aways cut the barrel off and turn it true in the lathe.

Would 30-32" be even better?

Thanks
Greebe

 

[HardBall]

I'm waiting on a 30" 24ga trade gun from NorthStarWest. A 36" gun would be my limit. I've got a 42" barreled rifle and it's a bit cumbersome to me, maybe I'm clumsy.

 

[hanshi]

Ballistically little is to be gained going much beyond 20" and certainly beyond 30". A 20" will do well with shot and with ball and a 30" simply won't give that much more velocity to a ball for the added 10". I want a shorty but it's an individual thing as far as "feel" goes.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks guys for the responses. You mention that a tapered barrel might be good. Does it taper from the breach plug all the way to the muzzle? I noticed that the TVM Fowler says it is a "special straight barrel". Is this a good thing or not?

Also is this Fowler a pretty historically accurate?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Birdwatcher]

For me, when striving to be historically correct in a flinter, there really is no substitute for length. And a 42" barrel would only be moderately long by the standards of the time, shorter than most actually.

I get to stand before the public pretty regular at the Alamo with my 42" TVM fowler or my 42" Southern Mountain Rifle (different builder), and that long barrel just seems to add a lot to a historically accurate impression, just the style of the piece draws attention. I do believe these aesthetics played a major role even back then.

When I had my fowler made I wanted a weapon that was reasonably historically accurate yet at the same time being applicable to as wide a time period as possible (basically an oxymoron).

I got the round-faced Chambers Colonial Virginia lock, but I believe the usual TVM lock on their fowlers is also round-faced (meaning the lockplate and cock (hammer) have a rounded profile).

Speaking in broad generalities....

Round-faced locks are correct for pre-American Rev-War applications, and also I think during and after that war but less common.

Flat-faced locks like the Siler are commonly held to be Rev War through the turn of the Ninteenth Century at least.

Likewise brass furniture is correct from pre-Rev War and beyond, iron (steel) furniture IIRC is most correct with post-Rev War guns.

So the round-faced lock and brass furniture on my TVM fowler generally has a broad range of PC, and the general lines of the gun are ambiguous enough that I've had it juried and approved at reenactments for everything from Ticonderoga (1757) to the Texas Revolution (1836).

My longrifle on the other hand has a Siler lock and iron furniture, that specific lock style is a bit dated for a 1820's era rifle but the iron furniture combined with the plain utilitarianism of the piece fits for a guy at the Alamo. However it might NOT pass muster for Rev War and certainly not earlier.

On a different tack....

I will throw in a word of caution about TVM fowlers, based on experience.

TVM to their disgrace (IMHO) mentions NOTHING about the fact that their fowler barrels, unlike every known original, are not tapered, at least on the octagon section. Mine is not tapered at all, octagon or round.

Every TVM fowler purchaser I have asked (four so far) like me was completely unaware of this issue at the time of ordering, TVM apparently does not feel obliged to inform customers of this issue.

This feature DOES have a profound effect on the heft and handling of the piece, resulting in a heavier gun with a poor sighting place down the top of the barrel. On mine, since it was so heavy (9 lbs) and muzzle heavy for a "fowler" I put on a rear sight and here in Texas it is now a generic "smooth rifle" made from spare parts :wink:

For about the same price, I would look hard at the North Star West offerings.

YMMV,
Birdwatcher

 

[Birdwatcher]

A "special straight barrel" is gobbledegook or doublespeak for "our barrels are not tapered".

A good fowler should be lightweight and graceful, a joy to handle. Heavy is for rifles.

IIRC some TVM fowler barrels are totally untapered like mine, others have the octagon part straight and the round part tapered.

When you look down a TVM barrel you see the top flat of the octagon which ends one third of the way down at the step-down to round. You cannot see the round part of the barrel. What you see is the top of the front sight floating out there in space. A poor sighting picture overall.

On a fully-tapered barrel you see pretty much the whole top surface of the barrel from breech to the front sight, a much faster and more natural sight picture, the gun LOOKS more graceful, is closer to the originals, and is lighter and faster-handling.

The other downside of the TVM fowler is that, in the interests of time saving, the ramrod channel is drilled a full 1/4" below the barrel channel in the forestock.

Why this matters is because this limits how slender the forearm can be, adding weight to the gun and giving clunkier lines.

All that being said, I ALWAYS get compliments from the public on how beautiful my fowler/smooth rifle looks. But that is in part because most of the other guys are carrying Pedersolis, Traditions, and Indian Besses :wink:

THIS crowd here wouldn't think a TVM Fowler is all that historically accurate, but overall it ain't bad. Northstar West is probably better, if only for the tapered barrels and slender forearms.

Birdwatcher

 

[tenngun]

I live in the ozarks and are woods can be thick. I have never found a 42 inch barrel to be a hassel to carry. In the end it comes down to what you want. If you want to be hc it depends on he type of fowler you have in mind.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks for the descriptive reply. I want something that is going to be HC but don't have any plans to "need" it that way. It will just be used in the woods for hunting and enjoyment. Maybe one day I will go to a gathering, but I do not see reenacting in my future so would be mostly for myself.

I am having a hard time visualizing such long barrels. The only muzzleloader I have is a Hawken rifle with 29" barrel so a 36 or 42" is hard to imagine being light and maneuverable as the Hawken seems like neither of these. I guess it is maneuverable buy swings like a brick.

Any chance you have a Hawken rifle you could photo next to a 36" or 42" smoothbore?

I did notice that the barrel of the TVM Fowler looked a bit off from the other smoothbores I have been eying over the past few years. Didn't realize it was because of lack of taper. You make a good point about sighting with it. Why would they not taper the barrel like everyone else?

Would the TVM barrel have enough material left on it to properly taper it on the lathe? I have the equipment and experience. How thick is the barrel at the muzzle vs a tapered barrel?

I was originally looking at North Star West, but they are kind of out of my budget for a kit right now. The TVM Fowler kit is $250 less than the NSW Northwest Gun which is a fairly big price difference to me. I had also looked at Sitting Fox but have heard varied opinions on them.

Thanks
Greebe

 

[Greebe]

Mostly I just want something to start shooting and hunting with. Never owned a smoothebore and have been really itching to get one over the past few years. HC would be nice but it is not a deal breaker to me. TVM has Special Builders Kits for only $499, which is why I am checking them out. Seems for the most part that they have a good reputation.

 

[Alden]

My .50 early virginia TVM rifle, and I would not buy from Matt again by the way, even new-used from somebody, is 42" and octagon to round. Handles fine. I am a brute but can't handle a full-length octagon longer than 39". Swamped, yes.

Fowler? No way. There are few pleasures like whipping a thin fowler around that feels like it's made from helium!

 

[Birdwatcher]

I am having a hard time visualizing such long barrels. The only muzzleloader I have is a Hawken rifle with 29" barrel so a 36 or 42" is hard to imagine being light and maneuverable as the Hawken seems like neither of these. I guess it is maneuverable buy swings like a brick.

Tell ya what, if'n I should win the lottery I'll treat you to one of these, a Mike Brooks Carolina trade gun. 20 gauge, 47 3/8" barrel, 6.2 lbs...
http://www.fowlingguns.com/carolinatradegun.html

I've handled one; OMG, flintlocks in Heaven must be like that, feels like a magic wand.

OK, that is what is possible in a very well done smoothbore.

For comparative pics, here's my 42" .50 cal Southern "Poor Boy" rifle, a gun so slender it looks even longer.

Same backdrop, a .54 cal Hatfield Plains Rifle, IIRC 33" barrel (I have since gifted it to a relative). Use the 2x4 nailed to the side of the post at muzzle height for scale.

Long barrels in scale, a lineup at Goliad last March, most of us with 40"+ barrels (I'm the short guy with the cloth on his head and the TVM fowler)....

Note the guy calling cadence is carrying a carbine...

Besides aesthetics, one thing about a long-barreled gun is that the center of gravity is thrown forward, such that even in a light gun that weight way out there makes the gun hang rock-steady in a standing offhand firing position.....

Nephews in NY State back in June about to shoot flintlocks...

Shortest/youngest nephew loading TVM, note distance between ramrod channel and barrel....

Shortest/youngest nephew firing TVM....

Tallest/oldest nephew...

Others. 80 grains 3F, 0.600 ball, 0.10 lubed patch...

And finally, a view of the rear sight I had put on, a huge improvement for that untapered barrel, plus it allows newbies to shoot to about point of aim right off.

Birdwatcher

 

[Birdwatcher]

Why would they not taper the barrel like everyone else?

Gotta be cost-saving, maybe simplified assembly, I would imagine the profit margin is already pretty slim.

Tapering the barrel might be doable I guess but the barrel channel in the stock is also untapered.

Birdwatcher

 

[Alden]

Correct. I had to convince him to put escutcheon plates on mine... He just didn't wanna do it becasue it was labor intensive -- but it isn't like he didn't offer the option and charge for it. Inletting for three pairs of plates -- imagine that.

 

[hanshi]

TVM should be able to supply you with a tapered barrel if you ask for one.

 

[hanshi]

Mine is untapered and I specified a rear sight when it was built. It sure paid off for me since I shoot more ball than shot. But even with shot the rear sight works fine. :thumbsup:

 

[tenngun]

Track of the wolf offers a NWG for just a litte higher then the tmv, makes a nice kit, took me about 80 hour to make it. I don't have the stamps on it.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks I will call and ask them about a tapered barrel for their Fowler kit.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks. The TOTW kits are nice looking however they are close to $200 more than the TVM. If I could get TVM to sell me a tapered barrel for the same price I might go that route.

Thanks
Greebe