-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
2f versus 3f
- Thread starter Fastleo
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
In theory, a little over 70 grains. Personally, I do not believe that a Seneca (or Cherokee) are candidates for ‘magnum’ loads. They are light graceful guns that have not been made in years. Break or damage something, good luck finding parts for a reasonable price if at all. I have found my accuracy loads with these light TCs in 45 caliber to be well less than 60 grains of 3F. Find no point in going past accuracy load.
It will interesting to hear from those who love, collect and shoot these TCs.
Phil Coffins
69 Cal.
If you read enough you’ll find something that supports anything. The real question is what’s the point?
Have a T/C Cherokee I have owned for 30+ years. In my younger days Foolishly shot 100grs in it of who knows what powder but we also thought you used cleaning patches for round ball loads.
Now days trying to take it easy on the little gun. However have yet to find an accurate rd ball load and it seems to prefer 70 grs of 3f with 240gr maxi balls.
That’s more than I want to shoot, my chart says a max load of 80grs -2f but it took that to get a decent group at 50 yards however not giving up. I have one goal for the rifle and that’s to harvest a nice buck with it. After that I want to focus on a accurate mild plinking rd ball load as i will retire the gun for my 54 renegade for hunting duty.
This is not exactly correct but I tend to go 10grs less for 3f vs 2f.
Now days trying to take it easy on the little gun. However have yet to find an accurate rd ball load and it seems to prefer 70 grs of 3f with 240gr maxi balls.
That’s more than I want to shoot, my chart says a max load of 80grs -2f but it took that to get a decent group at 50 yards however not giving up. I have one goal for the rifle and that’s to harvest a nice buck with it. After that I want to focus on a accurate mild plinking rd ball load as i will retire the gun for my 54 renegade for hunting duty.
This is not exactly correct but I tend to go 10grs less for 3f vs 2f.
longcruise
70 Cal.
There's really no formula needed. If it concerns you, back it off to 80. There can be more difference between two different brands of 2f than there is between the same brand 2f and 3f.
Then there's the difference in the actual mass of different brands of the same granulation. I've compared many powders in terms of their weight and volume and finally velocity. I can't post up those results right now but probably can on Monday.
But, here's a clue as to what I found. Powders of the same granulation, when thrown from the same volumetric measure had significant variations in mass (weight, there's that dirty word
)
And, according to velocities, the powder with the most mass (weight) produced the least energy (velocity).
Manufacturers have to draw a line for load data. There lawyers tell them so.
So maybe that will answer your question.
Then there's the difference in the actual mass of different brands of the same granulation. I've compared many powders in terms of their weight and volume and finally velocity. I can't post up those results right now but probably can on Monday.
But, here's a clue as to what I found. Powders of the same granulation, when thrown from the same volumetric measure had significant variations in mass (weight, there's that dirty word
)And, according to velocities, the powder with the most mass (weight) produced the least energy (velocity).
Manufacturers have to draw a line for load data. There lawyers tell them so.
So maybe that will answer your question.
With the 10% reduction, the equivalent load would be 80 grains volume of 3fg black powder. Use less of the more powerful substitute black powders. As stated by @SDSmlf, the Seneca and Cherokee are light guns and not meant for heavy loads. Develop the best load for accuracy on target and do not develop a load for a maximum powder charge.
If the desire is to use the Seneca for hunting, concentrate on a round ball accuracy load on the 60 to 65 grain 3fg black powder range and on hunting skills to place that ball where the result will be a successful hunt.
hanshi
Cannon
I used to shoot 80 grains of 3F in my main .45 which was a full size longrifle. Another .45 got 65 grains. Both loads were suitably accurate. Now all my .45s get between 60 and 70 grns depending on their specific preference.
Small rifles should fire patched round ball; heavy conicals overly stress the rifle and the shoulder. 50 grains of 3F or 2F will kill any deer you shoot with it, just place the ball in the right place. I've found snug, well lubed prb shoot best for me.
Small rifles should fire patched round ball; heavy conicals overly stress the rifle and the shoulder. 50 grains of 3F or 2F will kill any deer you shoot with it, just place the ball in the right place. I've found snug, well lubed prb shoot best for me.
ohio ramrod
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2008
- Messages
- 7,473
- Reaction score
- 2,202
Senacas and Cherokees are light rifles and shoot accurately with less than maximum loads. I believe accuracy is more important than maximum velocities. I never shoot more than 55 grain in my 45's and usually shoot 40 grain FFF.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2022
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 144
Start at 40-45 grains and work until you have your accurate load. Stop there. I use 3f in all my guns but my shotgun
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2016
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 28
Get the Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual, 2nd Edition by Sam Fadala great book
I would keep your load at 60 grains max if using 3F. I shoot Senecas and Cherokees a lot and have never found a need for more powder. The wrist and lock area on these is very light and have seen many cracks from heavier charges.
Sam was an advocate of heavy loads. He did most of his hunting at longer ranges. The manual mentioned is good, but don't go following all those recommendations for max loads.
"Now days trying to take it easy on the little gun. However have yet to find an accurate rd ball load and it seems to prefer 70 grs of 3f with 240gr maxi balls."
I would suggest you need heavier bullets to match the rifling twist. Just from my experience with bullets in modern rifles, never have, nor will I, use a maxi ball in a muzzleloader.
What bullets would you recommend?
You would need to find out the twist of your rifling.
https://www.ssusa.org/content/how-to-calculate-rifling-twist-rates-for-stabilizing-bullets/
There are (well maybe more because some people feel strongly both ways) as many answers as there are people.
It’s 1/48
The Seneca and Cherokee 45 caliber factory barrels were 1-48. I have personally repaired more than half a dozen of their stocks over the years. All were shot using heavy loads and or conicals. For a T/C Seneca or Cherokee I would stay with 60 grains of 3F and a patched round ball max. No point in shooting heavy charges and turning one into a parts gun. If you want an extra hard hitting muzzleloader best to go up in caliber. Plenty of options out there.
