25 or so yrs ago my Uncle short started his brand new rifle.....

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum:

Bergmann

40 Cal
MLF Supporter
Joined
Aug 8, 2021
Messages
111
Reaction score
100
Location
Granville TN
I actually have the gun in my possession. It is an Italian made Investarms .58, just checked.
Odd! the Italians usually make good stuff - at least they do today! Years ago not so much, I believe! These days I understand they do some serious proofing before a gun goes on the market! I have heard of, but have no experience with Investarms.
 

Eddie Southgate

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
253
Reaction score
142
Location
Minor Hill Tennessee
Was gonna post a link to this in the previous 10 page post on how to remove a minie ball from a 61 Springfield but I see it has been locked. Someone suggested shooting it out from where it was stuck part way down the barrel . They referenced having personally done it numerous times with no problem. This is an example of why Not to take that chance .
 

Eddie Southgate

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
253
Reaction score
142
Location
Minor Hill Tennessee
Odd! the Italians usually make good stuff - at least they do today! Years ago not so much, I believe! These days I understand they do some serious proofing before a gun goes on the market! I have heard of, but have no experience with Investarms.
That could happen with anybody's barrel . He basically built a small pipe bomb . Yup, 100 other barrels may be fired in the same manner with no damage before 1 blows . I don't fire anything not seated on the powder just in case I happen to be he owner of the 1 .
 

Notchy Bob

54 Cal.
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
1,511
Reaction score
2,297
Location
Florida
I don't want to take away from the point the OP is making, but I'm curious... Was the barrel of this rifle cut off, a new front sight installed, and put back into service, or was the rifle re-barreled, or retired?

Samuel Hearne, a mid-18th century Hudson's Bay Company employee who explored most of Canada and lived with the native people, reported that their fusils would sometimes burst their barrels. Hearse attributed this to the use of inappropriate projectiles, such as rocks or odd bits of iron. He said these damaged guns were salvaged, when feasible, by cutting the barrel off below the damaged section. We now call these cut-off Indian guns "buffalo runners," "canoe guns," or "blanket guns," but Hearne didn't use any of those terms. He said these shortened muskets were favored by moose hunters, who would run down their quarry and kill them at close range.

Notchy Bob
 

Ironoxide

40 Cal
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
267
Reaction score
211
Sorry, but I find it hard to believe 70 gr of black powder can blow up an Italian modern made barrel. If it was loaded normally and then another ball was short started on top, maybe then I can believe modern steel would crack. This is not cracked. This is fully blown.

If the load given is correct maybe the gun was horribly corroded or it is a fake posing as Italian? I saw pictures of India made guns with all sorts of "replica" stamps posing as originals etc.

No disrespect to the poster, but something does not add up here.

There is nothing inherently bad about "foreign made barrels" (ok with exception of Indian one's, there are some companies in India that shouldn't have anything to do with firearms) .

Even the weakest modern steel - mild steel is plenty strong enough at this wall thickness not to burst at any pressures reachable by black powder and one prb placed anywhere in the barrel. Anyone claiming leaving an air gap over powder is akin to a "pipe bomb" forgets a "pipe bomb" is actually closed by threading a cap at both ends.

The mechanism that bulges a short started barrel has only the inertia of the stationary ball to overcome and the mass of the powder column moving up the bore behind it. The moment steel deform enough to create a gap the pressure vents. There would have to be a pressure buildup faster than the speed of sound in steel (10k fps for mild steel) for this to happen.
 

Notchy Bob

54 Cal.
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
1,511
Reaction score
2,297
Location
Florida
Strange things happen. When I was in high school, my dad taught vocational agriculture and shop. One of the boys brought in his double barreled shotgun, which had one barrel burst up close to the muzzle, maybe an inch back. I recall a flap of metal was peeled back. He had tripped and fallen while out hunting, and got a dirt plug in the muzzle during the fall. The barrel blew when he took his next shot. This was a hammerless breechloader with smokeless ammo, which we don't normally discuss on this board, but we're talking about burst barrels. It didn't take much of an obstruction to result in a rupture.

Dad helped him cut off and square up the barrels as a shop project.

Notchy Bob
 

Ironoxide

40 Cal
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
267
Reaction score
211
Strange things happen. When I was in high school, my dad taught vocational agriculture and shop. One of the boys brought in his double barreled shotgun, which had one barrel burst up close to the muzzle, maybe an inch back. I recall a flap of metal was peeled back. He had tripped and fallen while out hunting, and got a dirt plug in the muzzle during the fall. The barrel blew when he took his next shot. This was a hammerless breechloader with smokeless ammo, which we don't normally discuss on this board, but we're talking about burst barrels. It didn't take much of an obstruction to result in a rupture.

Dad helped him cut off and square up the barrels as a shop project.

Notchy Bob
The key information here is smokeless powder, thin shotgun barrel, and a possibility of a heavy plug of mud. I have heard about unmentionable rifles (quite frequently on 22 rim fire) having ringed barrels because of a drop of oil inside. I never questioned that, because I modern nitro propellants can easily result in very excessive pressures when obstructed even momentarily.

Back in the day when gun cotton (nitrocellulose) was first invented many people blew up their muzzleloaders with it attempting to use it straight. Even with tiny loads. This was because of the rate of decomposition and resulting overpressure. I also heard of many instances of people blowing up modern replicas by using modern powder from disassembled cartridges. Sometimes people shot like this for years, and one unlucky day it blew up. These are just stories online, but they sound plausible.

Fun fact, one of first nitro powders contained nitrocellulose(gun cotton) dissolved in ether/alcohol mixed with nitroglycerin then dried into pasta like strands. Same nitrocellulose dissolved in alcohol/ether sprayed over wounds was one of first "artificial skin" wound dressings when it dried. I imagine patients were not allowed to smoke with those dressings on their wounds.
 

Springerpanhead

40 Cal
MLF Supporter
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
271
Reaction score
336
W
Was gonna post a link to this in the previous 10 page post on how to remove a minie ball from a 61 Springfield but I see it has been locked. Someone suggested shooting it out from where it was stuck part way down the barrel . They referenced having personally done it numerous times with no problem. This is an example of why Not to take that chance .
Would someone please explain the physics behind the theory that an air gap creates a “pipe bomb” To my knowledge pipe bombs are usually stuffed full (no aireap) and in the bp rifle the potassium nitrate is producing all the oxygen the sulphur and charcoal need to burn. So pleas explain how a little extra air causes such a violent rise in pressure so as to damage a barrel. As far as I’m concerned the bore obstruction theory is pure BS unless there is another projectile loaded behind it. No anecdotes here please, just pure physics.
 

Flintlock Whiskey

40 Cal
MLF Supporter
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
Messages
319
Reaction score
337
Location
Cave Creek Arizona
W

Would someone please explain the physics behind the theory that an air gap creates a “pipe bomb” To my knowledge pipe bombs are usually stuffed full (no aireap) and in the bp rifle the potassium nitrate is producing all the oxygen the sulphur and charcoal need to burn. So pleas explain how a little extra air causes such a violent rise in pressure so as to damage a barrel. As far as I’m concerned the bore obstruction theory is pure BS unless there is another projectile loaded behind it. No anecdotes here please, just pure physics.
I can tell you for a FACT that there was one ball and it was short started and that was the end result. Not to be rude here, but you sound like someone who if they don't see it for themselves, it didn't happen. It did. No bs.
 

Eddie Southgate

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
253
Reaction score
142
Location
Minor Hill Tennessee
Strange things happen. When I was in high school, my dad taught vocational agriculture and shop. One of the boys brought in his double barreled shotgun, which had one barrel burst up close to the muzzle, maybe an inch back. I recall a flap of metal was peeled back. He had tripped and fallen while out hunting, and got a dirt plug in the muzzle during the fall. The barrel blew when he took his next shot. This was a hammerless breechloader with smokeless ammo, which we don't normally discuss on this board, but we're talking about burst barrels. It didn't take much of an obstruction to result in a rupture.

Dad helped him cut off and square up the barrels as a shop project.

Notchy Bob
Not the same . That actually happens quite a lot . In this case you have an ounce or more of lead trying to get out of the barrel behind the obstruction . The type of powder makes no difference in this case .
 

Eddie Southgate

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
253
Reaction score
142
Location
Minor Hill Tennessee
W

Would someone please explain the physics behind the theory that an air gap creates a “pipe bomb” To my knowledge pipe bombs are usually stuffed full (no aireap) and in the bp rifle the potassium nitrate is producing all the oxygen the sulphur and charcoal need to burn. So pleas explain how a little extra air causes such a violent rise in pressure so as to damage a barrel. As far as I’m concerned the bore obstruction theory is pure BS unless there is another projectile loaded behind it. No anecdotes here please, just pure physics.
Not a scientist or engineer so I really can't do that . Pipe bomb was a slight exaggeration on my part , but maybe not by much . Black powder needs to be compressed to be a propellant so that it burns progressively going down the barrel . Left loose in the barrel due to a ball not being seated it detonates rather than burning . The ball will come out of the barrel ahead of the gas but the huge pressure spike created by the gap Can burst or bulge the barrel . Not guaranteed to do either but it can and does do it . My point is , don't take the chance and end up being the one that it does burst on .
 

Flintlock Whiskey

40 Cal
MLF Supporter
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
Messages
319
Reaction score
337
Location
Cave Creek Arizona
Not a scientist or engineer so I really can't do that . Pipe bomb was a slight exaggeration on my part , but maybe not by much . Black powder needs to be compressed to be a propellant so that it burns progressively going down the barrel . Left loose in the barrel due to a ball not being seated it detonates rather than burning . The ball will come out of the barrel ahead of the gas but the huge pressure spike created by the gap Can burst or bulge the barrel . Not guaranteed to do either but it can and does do it . My point is , don't take the chance and end up being the one that it does burst on .
I always kinda thought that a BP ML was in a sense an inverted bottle rocket. The way the powder propels the ball/bullet/slug is basically the same.
 

Eddie Southgate

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
253
Reaction score
142
Location
Minor Hill Tennessee
Read the big red warning toward the bottom of page 24 of this TC instruction manual , then use your own judgment as to whether they know what they are talking about or not . They do employ lots of engineers and they do run tests in their lab to determine if a short load will actually damage a barrel . They also state to disassemble to clear an obstruction , no grease gun mentioned . This manual is for a modern type of ML that is probably stronger than your Hawken regardless of who made it .

My dad had an original cap lock burst a barrel with 40 g of 3f and no obstruction . It burst roughly 16" in front of where the ball was correctly seated . His father , my pap , had a 1860 Army Colt blow on him at a match , no obstruction and properly loaded for 25 yard target work. I popped one in 1978 due to an obstruction , fortunately I was not hurt . I lost the pin that held the jag on my loading rod without knowing it. I loaded my .50 TC Hawken with 55 gr of 2f and as I removed the rod the jag stayed in the bore , somewhere. Do not know if there was a gap or not but it split the barrel about a foot in front of where the ball was firmly seated on the powder . The barrel in the TC was A Sharon and was considered a pretty good barrel in them days so it was not the fault of the barrel . I now look at my rod before I fire my gun .

 

Britsmoothy

70 Cal.
MLF Supporter
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
7,885
Location
England.
We don't know if a ball was loaded then a second ball short started. We don't know if it was snow or mud.
 

Eddie Southgate

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
253
Reaction score
142
Location
Minor Hill Tennessee
We don't know if a ball was loaded then a second ball short started. We don't know if it was snow or mud.
Then you posted without reading the thread . Who is this We you are referring to ? I know it was neither because I read where the OP stated there was only one ball and no other obstruction . He was a witness , I have no reason to think he lied .
 

Britsmoothy

70 Cal.
MLF Supporter
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
7,885
Location
England.
Then you posted without reading the thread . Who is this We you are referring to ? I know it was neither because I read where the OP stated there was only one ball and no other obstruction . He was a witness , I have no reason to think he lied .
You are right. I haven't read everything. I'm anxious to go to sleep. It's getting late here.
Of course I am not implying the witness is lying.
I am implying, I guess we will never know exactly what caused the failure.
My apologies if I offended any one.
 

Flintlock Whiskey

40 Cal
MLF Supporter
Joined
Aug 5, 2021
Messages
319
Reaction score
337
Location
Cave Creek Arizona
You are right. I haven't read everything. I'm anxious to go to sleep. It's getting late here.
Of course I am not implying the witness is lying.
I am implying, I guess we will never know exactly what caused the failure.
My apologies if I offended any one.
I am the "witness" being referred to. I have this posted on other forum sites as well. I've had much in the way of knee jerk response insinuating everything from made it up for click bait to outright lying. Sheessshhh!
I almost want to say "go ahead and try it out for yourself and see what happens". Except some block head would do it. To "Britsmoothy", no worries, I know what it is like to operate on very little sleep.
 

Latest posts

Top