2 Pistols

[Selair_chapman]

A shop near my work has these two hanging way up high on a wall as decoration. I always assumed they were modern non-firing replicas until I asked about them last week and was told they were real and for sale. I convinced the owner to take them down for me to get a better look and sure enough they appear very real and very old. I am an antique musket collector but know very little about flinter pistols. I did some research online and think that the second pistol with full metal grip is likely a MIQUELET-LOCK 'RAT-TAIL' PISTOL. I have no idea about the first gun however. Judging by the sheet metal barrel band it may be Ottoman/Balkan but that is more than a bit of a guess. The engraving on the top of the barrel looks like a conquistador and native warrior....so maybe Spanish? Anyone have any idea what these are and, if so, a ball-park value?

Pistol 1

This is the "conquistador and native warrior" engraving

Front top-down

Side with camera flash

Side without camera flash

Good view of sheet metal band

Trigger Guard

Gun 2, what I am referenced above as a "MIQUELET-LOCK 'RAT-TAIL' PISTOL"

 

[bubba.50]

I don't know but, that "barrel band" and the brass plate opposite the lock look like home repairs to me. the band likely holds the barrel in the stock now.

 

[hawkeye2]

It's really difficult to tell what Mediterranean/Middle Eastern guns are without actually having them in hand and sometimes even then it's hard to tell a quality decorator form the real thing. Non-firing fairly good decorators were in vogue during the Victorian era and they would look like antiques today. The workmanship on firing originals varied from very good to extremely crude and that includes the decorations which were often extensive. I own 2 jezails and an Ottoman flint but I wouldn't hazard a guess on these. Rat tail pistols bring quite a respectable price if they are real. We do have a forum member who is very much into Middle Eastern guns and perhaps he will see these and offer his opinion. Even if these were the real thing I would never consider firing one without having a good blackpowder gunsmith give them an extensive going over.

 

[Selair_chapman]

Thanks guys. Fingers crossed a forum member will have an ah-hah! moment with these. I think I could get the pair off the guy for $270 USD. He has equally no idea about them and is not a gun person.

 

[eggwelder]

$270? yeah, thats pretty good for this side of the border. our souther brethren might balk at that price. id still try to get him down a bit more. i think they`re great, i don't see that stuff much, but grab it if i can when i find it.
the hammer on the miquelette seems too far back from the frizzen. really long flint would be required.

 

[wulf]

`I think for $270. He would just as well leave them
on the wall....wait till Ricky gets on here.

 

[robinghewitt]

There are a lot of them around...

Everyone laughed when I bought one for £200 but I think they are fun. I really like the way the internal screws do not quite penetrate the lock plate :thumbsup:

 

[rickystl]

Hi Selair.

If you can get BOTH for $270.00 I would grab them and not even argue the price. You can easily double your money. :haha: But don't attempt to shoot them!! At least not without a thorough inspection.

FIRST PISTOL: This is a Turkish/Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. And typical of the style. Appears to be authentic. These were made by the thousands, virtually unchanged for some 200 years. Likely made at one of the many gun making centers in the Balkans under contract with the Ottoman Empire. That there were so many made, over such a long period of time, likely accounts for the large variety still availabile today. Unless made as a pair, I've never seen any two exactly alike. The chiseling/engraving on the barrel and locks as well as other decoration was usually done in a generic fashion so as to appeal to a wide range of prospective customers. The thin brass sideplate on this one looks like a more recent replacement. Most of these pistols you encounter today show signs of heavy use. And likely were. These pistols were so popular in the region, that even European builders would make locks, barrels, and even complete guns and decorate them for export to the local markets.
SECOND PISTOL: This one is an Albanian miquelet pistol. Again, typical of the style. Many were made under the same senario as above. Just styled for the Albanian market. These had wood stocks sheathed in brass. A common theme with both Albanian pistols and long guns.

These pistols have what is called a "false" ramrod. Either a short piece of rod, or a moulding on the bottom of the fore end to give the appearance of a ramrod. But this was just a styling exercise. They prefered to load their pistols with a seperate metal rod suspended around the neck called a Suma.

Most of the Mid-East arms collectors are into the blades and armour. The collectors for the guns seem to be a fraction of that. This fact, combined with the large quantities still available, are the likely reasons these guns have never brought the pricing their American and European counterparts do. There simply is not the collectors for the. There are exceptions of course. But that's the general situation.
Hope this helps.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Just for comparison, here are two Ottoman Kubur pistols in firing condition with steel barrel liners from Bobby Hoyt. :hatsoff:
Rick

 

[rickystl]

And a Trio of Albanian pistols, including a Rat Tail.
The middle one is a shooter. :hatsoff:
Rick

 

[Selair_chapman]

Thanks very very much Ricky! That's great info! I will try to get them for that price but may pass if he holds out for more. Learned a lot through this process/forum. Thanks everyone.

 

[rickystl]

You are most welcome. Glad to be of some assistance.
One other interesting note: Most of these pistols are un-marked. Researchers believe the primary reason for this is so the gun would not be traceable back to any specific builder/shop, as the guns were sold to both friend and foe alike. :haha:

Rick