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18th century Dagger

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Elnathan

50 Cal.
Joined
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Well, I finally got this done! (more or less....) Proof that I occasionally actually make stuff instead of just hanging around online and talking about it!

A couple profile shots
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And in its natural habitat...
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Apologies for my bad photography...As you can probably tell, I haven't mastered the art of sharpening a blade without scratching it up a bit. The scratches are a lot less obvious in person, though.

The blade is just exactly 7 inches long and 1 inch wide, 12" long overall, and balances right at the junction between guard and grip, I think. Blade is made of 1084, the grip of walnut, and the fittings of whatever bits of mild steel I had laying around.

I made this as something of a commentary on the big "riflemen's knives" with guard and antler handle that are ubiquitous these days. As I'm sure most folks know, despite their popularity among modern reenactors there are very few blacksmith-made knives that can be proven to date to the 18th century and none of them bear any resemblence to the modern version....On the other hand, there are some daggers that survive from the period, so if one just can't live without a big fighting knife with a handguard then a dagger offers a PC and oft-overlooked alternative. I honestly doubt that they were all that common either, but they did exist.

It based primarily on the example in Gordon Minnis' American Primitive Knives, plate 27 (page 49), also illustrated on page 156 of Johnstone's Accouterments III, with some influence from 18.K in Neumann's Swords and Blades and BK.1 in Madison Grant's The Knife in Homespun America (which I think is actually 19th century). The vision in my head was for this to represent a dagger made sometime around 1775-1785 in SW Virginia or Tennessee and reflecting the taste for iron mounts and walnut stocks for rifles that was just getting started around that time and place - it was kind of intended as a companion piece for an as-of-yet unbuilt proto-mountain rifle. Like rifles, early daggers tend to be fairly well made, not crude, and the first wave of settlers were not poverty stricken the way some of the later ones would be, so this is intended to be workmanlike, with a bit of attention to making a nice piece. I shaped it by eye and some basic measuring tools, though, and while I did my best to keep it straight and symmetrical I didn't worry unduly about little irregularities. Whether that was the right approach I'll have to leave for y'all to decide - I like the fact that it doesn't look too crisp (a lot of modern made "primitive" knifes are over-finished, IMHO), but there are areas that I wish I had gotten a bit better.

On a personal level, this was my first double-edge blade, my first knife with a hilt, my first attempt at making a ferrule, and my first knife with a through tang peened at the end. Quite a step up in complexity from the sheath knives I previous made! I ended up making every piece of the knife at least twice, including the blade, and I can think of several things that I want to do differently the next time around, mostly relating to the shape of the tang and the fit of the handle and guard to the tang. Lots of room for improvement yet. One of the nice things about making a "frontier knife" though, is that a bit of roughness is forgiveable....

Now I need to make a sheath for it.
 
Looks like you did very well. It looks "right" for that time, or will after you use it some. Good work. It is all in good proportion, and good choice of materials. Very good overall!
 
I very much agree with Wick that it looks "right" for the period. I particularly like not only the shape of the tang washer on the butt end, but also the way you relieved the edges of it and how nicely you peened the end of the tang.

What I am wondering, though, is if there is a shadow in the picture between the blade and guard that makes it look like there is lot of open room in the guard around the tang and rear of the blade?

Also, just curious - did you drill the tang hole and file the hole in the grip to match the tang or did you burn the tang hole through the grip?

Gus
 
Gus,

There is a bit of a gap between the opening in the guard and the sides of the blade. It isn't huge, but it does exist. The transition between the blade and the tang has a very substantial radius and the flats of the blade extend up beneath the guard before transitioning into the oval tang - it is a very complex geometry and difficult to describe, and unfortunately it made it very difficult to fit the guard to the blade. I had to file a kind of flattened funnel shape, diamond shaped up front and oval in the rear, and I just couldn't quite get it right, so I ended up filing the diamond shape out a bit and rounding it into an oval to get it even. Looks better to have the slot a little wider than necessary than to have it uneven, I discovered...

I don't know how they did it in the 18th century, but medieval sword hilts are usually slotted so that the hilt fits over the end of the blade. The general design is sound - and PC - it is just that my execution was a bit clumsy.

The grip was made by drilling out the wood and fitting it with files. i don't grind my blades or tang down to final dimensions until after heat treatment, so I can't use burning.

Next time I'm going to use a different tang shape and rethink how I want the transition between the flats of the blade and the tang to see if I can't get a neater joint there.
 
I made this as something of a commentary on the big "riflemen's knives" with guard and antler handle that are ubiquitous these days. As I'm sure most folks know, despite their popularity among modern reenactors there are very few blacksmith-made knives that can be proven to date to the 18th century and none of them bear any resemblence to the modern version.

Take a look at page 97, #4 in the Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution. And I respectfully disagree with that "none of them" comment. Mine (made 1975) is virtually identical to #4.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
I made this as something of a commentary on the big "riflemen's knives" with guard and antler handle that are ubiquitous these days. As I'm sure most folks know, despite their popularity among modern reenactors there are very few blacksmith-made knives that can be proven to date to the 18th century and none of them bear any resemblence to the modern version.

Take a look at page 97, #4 in the Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution. And I respectfully disagree with that "none of them" comment. Mine (made 1975) is virtually identical to #4.

Neumann dates that to 1750-1850, and the real date is almost certainly post 1800, judging by the flat guard and the shape of the blade. Probably 1825-50, or even later. 18th century daggers - ones have been recovered from archeological digs, are dated, or can be reasonably assumed to be 18th century based on stylistic features found on swords from the period - tend to have narrower, pointier blades and more sculpted guards. They are also smaller, generally. The one exception is one made from the stub of an old sword blade, which for obvious reasons doesn't have the triangular shape. Mine is actually very typical in most respects. Gordon Minnis lays this out in his book I referenced in my first post.

There are a plethora of big old knives with guards illustrated in books. The problem is that there is virtually no way to tell the difference between homespun knife made in 1780 and one made in 1880s or even in the 1930s during the Great Depression just by looking at it. Unless it one that was dug up in a place that provides a date, such as the Fort Ticonderoga knife, dates given in books are just guesses and shouldn't really be taken seriously. Gordon Minnis is about the only author who isn't obviously letting his imagination run away with him, and even his dates I take with a grain of salt, since he was starting with a number of assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

If you look just at the handful of homespun single edged knives that have been dug up from archeological sites or have datable 18th century features, you will notice that virtually all have curved blades, usually with a kind of banana shape to the point (almost never seen today on repros, but typical of how a forged knife point wants to look if the smith isn't too skilled), no guard, no pewter bolster, no ferrule usually. Nothing like the "rifleman's knife" made today...

One of these fine days I'm going to do a post looking at the do's and don'ts of recreating period knives, using my own efforts as examples of what not to do. Might want to wait until I have some positive examples to point to, though...:p
 
Elnathan said:
Gus,

There is a bit of a gap between the opening in the guard and the sides of the blade. It isn't huge, but it does exist. The transition between the blade and the tang has a very substantial radius and the flats of the blade extend up beneath the guard before transitioning into the oval tang - it is a very complex geometry and difficult to describe, and unfortunately it made it very difficult to fit the guard to the blade. I had to file a kind of flattened funnel shape, diamond shaped up front and oval in the rear, and I just couldn't quite get it right, so I ended up filing the diamond shape out a bit and rounding it into an oval to get it even. Looks better to have the slot a little wider than necessary than to have it uneven, I discovered...

I don't know how they did it in the 18th century, but medieval sword hilts are usually slotted so that the hilt fits over the end of the blade. The general design is sound - and PC - it is just that my execution was a bit clumsy.

The grip was made by drilling out the wood and fitting it with files. i don't grind my blades or tang down to final dimensions until after heat treatment, so I can't use burning.

Next time I'm going to use a different tang shape and rethink how I want the transition between the flats of the blade and the tang to see if I can't get a neater joint there.

I know exactly what you mean about medieval sword hilts slots were designed as I have been studying sword/knife construction for years. The most exacting blade/tang transition hole shape I have ever done was on a Track of the Wolf Repro Scottish Dirk Blade and Guard similar to the Second one Down under "A selection of traditional dirks" in this link: https://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

However, right after I got the guard fitted, I found out the cast blade could not be hardened, so I never went any further. Some day I might get around to making another blade for the guard and pommel cap.

The reason I mentioned the gap around the tang was as I'm sure you know, blood and other things can get in there and later contaminate game or other things you chop up to cook. (I realize they didn't know that in the period, for the most part.)

I was thinking to suggest using either poured pewter or "cutlers resin" made up using modern epoxy as a base to fill in that gap for that reason. Of course it is your knife and you certainly don't have to do it, but it would be a way of filling the gap.

Gus
 
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I was thinking I might use beeswax to stop up the gap, but cutler's rosin is also a possibility. I have quite a bit of pine pitch I gathered from my parents' back .40 and cooked down, so it is definitely an option.
 
You continue the diamond shape right onto the tang, but with a slight taper on all sides, until you get near the end of it. Another way is to short tang it, install the guard and then add an extension by weld or by pin re-enforced silver/brass brazed lap joint.
 
Thanks. I'll bear that in mind next time.

I need to make a list soon of lessons learned so I don't forget by the next time I get around to making one.


Hawkeye2,

Yes, the horn is my work, from about 15 years ago.
 
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