1858 New Army revolver - legit combat arm?

[garandman]

crockett -

Interesting. Thanx.

 

[Dphar]

I have no idea how reliable 1860s caps were ....Dan

Yeah, I really didn't read your post beyond this point, cus THIS is the whole point of my post .

But thanks for the ad hominem attack saying I don't know how to operate my gun. Which even if it were true, is irrelevant.

The point of this thread is the 1858 revolver during the 1860's.

Which as you admit, you know nothing about.

You came here with a preconceived and faulty notion. You asked a question. Got answers you did not like. So you started changing the question.
Was the 1858 Remington a legit combat arm in its day. This was the original question. The answer is obvious, yes it was. But you did not come here for answers you came to argue.

Its like this, faulty ammo, people not trained in its care and feeding, people who panic when using the arm. NONE of this makes for an unreliable arm.
Firearms, be it a 1858 Rem, a Garand or an M2 Browning ALL need to be fed and cared for properly.
So not knowing what caps are needed is a MAJOR factor in reliability. But you would rather ignore this since it was your mistake. Something that you obviously did not even know was a mistake until told here.

Give someone an M2 Browning, about as good as they get, let them pull the back plate off and screw with the timing wheel and the headspace and there WILL be problems. Give it to someone who knows how and it will run like a Swiss watch. With a little tuning they will make the same rate of fire as an M-60.
Someone buys an 1858 Rem and he puts on the wrong caps, the caps fall off. This does not make the arm unreliable in design. Its unreliable due to operator error. This does not mean the weapon is "illegitimate" it means the operator does not understand how to make it work properly.

BTW the M-60 was not unreliable, its still in use by the military and I never called it a "pig".
Its was my friend.

All the M-16s I had issued (3) were faultless. But I was a gun guy before I entered the military and knew that things;
1. Need to be clean and 2. Need to be lubricated.

Percussion arms need caps that fit the nipple properly. Otherwise its like shooting 22 lr in a 22 mag. It will work. But there are problems that would not occur with the proper ammo.

Dan

 

[robtattoo]

clapclapclapclapclapclapclap.

Well said Dan & in case I haven't mentioned it before, Thanks for your service.

 

[Dphar]

For anyone who has read the history of the war it is mentioned often. Read the last few lines of the first paragraph. There are many notes on this issue.
http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/revolvers.htm[/quote]


The problem as I see it is that I don't think that a revolver was an issue weapon for the average infantryman. If the infantryman was dropping a revolver it was likely a battlefield pick up arm that he was not even allowed ammo for. So the arm may have been just a boat anchor to the average infantryman when the new wore off it got traded off or dropped when the march was excessively tiresome.
I would need a citation for infantry privates being issued revolvers before believing they were tossing revolvers issued to them.

Pg 207. "Firearms of The American West 1803-1865" Garavaglia and Worman:
"The coming war forced Ordnance officers to search for handguns as well as long arms, but since the infantrymen made up the bulk of both armies, the need for pistols was not pressing..."

This two volume set covering 1803 to 1896 contains a lot of first person accounts from the period and are heavily footnoted, 25 pages for the vol. cited here and 9 pages of bibliography.

Dan

 

[garandman]

[\BTW the M-60 was not unreliable, its still in use by the military and I never called it a "pig".
Its was my friend.

Dan

Yeah, trigger finger discipline? :wink:

Thanks for lots of opinions, but no actual data. Like you said, you don't actually know anything about the question I asked.

 

[Spots]

You have convinced yourself that their is no way cap and ball revolvers could be a feasible firearm in war. Well thats the best they had, and any real solider will make do with what he has on hand. Ive seen all kinds of evidence presented to show you that they were used to good effect, but as has already been stated, you came to argue any opinon that is not in aggrement. Btw just cause your caps fall off soesnt mean everyones do. Ive lost one cap in over 500 combined rounds through an 1851 navy and 1858 army. I pinch my caps, replace my nipples when worn, and I buy the correct size. If your life depended on that revolver you would do the same or more to prevent jams and misfires.

 

[garandman]

The problem as I see it is that I don't think that a revolver was an issue weapon for the average infantryman. If the infantryman was dropping a revolver it was likely a battlefield pick up arm that he was not even allowed ammo for. So the arm may have been just a boat anchor to the average infantryman when the new wore off it got traded off or dropped when the march was excessively tiresome.
I would need a citation for infantry privates being issued revolvers before believing they were tossing revolvers issued to them.

Pg 207. "Firearms of The American West 1803-1865" Garavaglia and Worman:
"The coming war forced Ordnance officers to search for handguns as well as long arms, but since the infantrymen made up the bulk of both armies, the need for pistols was not pressing..."

This two volume set covering 1803 to 1896 contains a lot of first person accounts from the period and are heavily footnoted, 25 pages for the vol. cited here and 9 pages of bibliography.

Dan

Now this is actually helpful.

If true, there may not be enuf infantry combat data to judge if the PC revolver was rendered ineffective in combat by dislodging caps.

Not being issued caps would adequately explain infantrymen dropping battlefield pic up souvenirs.

 

[garandman]

You have convinced yourself that their is no way cap and ball revolvers could be a feasible firearm in war.

Actually no, I haven't. Certainly, the "best avaiable" arm would be used. But that doesn't mean there weren't issues with caps dislodging. I'm looking for battlefield evidence either way.

I pinch my caps, replace my nipples when worn, and I buy the correct size. If your life depended on that revolver you would do the same or more to prevent jams and misfires.

Sure, you and I would. CW soldiers whose only supply source was the ordnance officer wouldn't have had nearly the resources we have. Nor were manufacturing tolerances as tight then as today. And as others have said, caps were not as standardized then as now. So, in my estimation, your anecdotal, modern day analogy doesn't work.

 

[nkbj]

I know they needed a revolver that shot 230 grain round ball, but I forgot to wind up my time machine so they're on their own.

 

[garandman]

I know they needed a revolver that shot 230 grain round ball, but I forgot to wind up my time machine so they're on their own.

Well, at least you get the "then vs. now" reality.

Alot of people telling me what they'd SURELY do now apparently don't.

:v

 

[garandman]

Here's the next line of Q's which y'all have helped me see -

1. Were perc revolvers significantly used by infantry? Or was it just primarily officers?

2. Were other techniques used to keep caps from dislodging? (wax, pinching, etc)

3. Was a different / better form of perc cap used, specifically suited to combat rigors?

 

[Dphar]

[\BTW the M-60 was not unreliable, its still in use by the military and I never called it a "pig".
Its was my friend.

Dan

Yeah, trigger finger discipline? :wink:

Thanks for lots of opinions, but no actual data. Like you said, you don't actually know anything about the question I asked.

Heh! Heh! Heh!
Come back when you grow up.
Dan

 

[garandman]

Heh! Heh! Heh!
Come back when you grow up.
Dan

In the CWP classes I teach, I teach that trigger finger discipline is a VERy "grown up" thing to do.

That said, you did make a very useful citation to whether line infantry had access to PC revolvers other than as souvenirs. That was helpful to my question.

And for that I thank you.

 

[junkman_01]

garandman,

As I said in my earlier post, if YOUR caps are falling off you are using the wrong size caps, and that makes it operator error, not the fault of the equipment. As for standardization of caps sizes, there is LESS standardization today then there was 150 years ago! :youcrazy:

 

[garandman]

garandman,

As I said in my earlier post, if YOUR caps are falling off you are using the wrong size caps, and that makes it operator error, not the fault of the equipment. As for standardization of caps sizes, there is LESS standardization today then there was 150 years ago! :youcrazy:

In a single brand new container of CCI no. 10 perc caps, some are very well fitting. Others fall off. Brand new gun. Same happens with other manufacturers.

How's that my fault?


It doesn't happen for every cylinder fired, but the fact it DOES happen makes this a legitimate question to me. If it doesn't to you, I release you from any obligation to further participation in this thread.

 

[cynthialee]

If you are just puting the caps on without being sure they are snug that is your fault.
My pitol doesn't have uniform nipples, thats why I use two differant sized caps on them. Now I have no issues. As a result it is my foresight that insures that my revolver is good to go.

If you want your firearms to preform properly, it is up to you to do your part.

 

[Dphar]

Heh! Heh! Heh!

It is obvious that not only do you not "get it". You don't WANT to get it.
This is a condition I call "obstinate ignorance". It is common among people with preconceived ideas.

Apparently your primary reason for posting here is to irritate people.
Having come to this conclusion I will sign off.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

garandman,

As I said in my earlier post, if YOUR caps are falling off you are using the wrong size caps, and that makes it operator error, not the fault of the equipment. As for standardization of caps sizes, there is LESS standardization today then there was 150 years ago! :youcrazy:

In a single brand new container of CCI no. 10 perc caps, some are very well fitting. Others fall off. Brand new gun. Same happens with other manufacturers.

How's that my fault?


It doesn't happen for every cylinder fired, but the fact it DOES happen makes this a legitimate question to me. If it doesn't to you, I release you from any obligation to further participation in this thread.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[garandman]

Wow. OK, then... bye.

 

[necchi]

Trouble is garandman, you do have a preconcieved notion and an agenda to prove your idea.
You want us to prove or somehow provide documentation that your idea is wrong.
You want us to do the research for you.
And many times on this forum that kind of thing happens but I don't expect that to happen this time.

You've been presented with several examples of folks who's experiance with the reliability of their Remington is different than yours. Your conclusion of unreliability is unique.

Some very knowledgable people have responded some with suggestion to sources and you've rebutt their information.

Simple application of firm thumb pressure on the cap after it's in place can help a cap stay in place.
There is actually a video available from a member here that suggests a modification to the Rem cylinder for easier application of caps to the modern replicas we have available.

None of us here are shooting originals with original componants, they are all reproductions.

If you want a real answer to your questions I'd respectfully suggest you go to the library check out a few books and begin your own actual research.

There is an outfit/orginization called the
North/South Skirmish Association, NSSA, that are Civil War reenactors,, it's huge.
Perhaps joining their forum and asking questions there would benefit with more exact knowledge of Civil War realities. We have a few here but the majority of our members are furtrade and earlier. The C&B revolvers are at the outside edge of our timeframe here and knowledge base.


We of course shoot them, clean them, disassemble them and can help diagnose troubles and help folks learn about proper care and handleing.

I've simply never heard as course of being somewhat of a history buff that any of the C&B revolvers in common use where markedly unreliable, I guess the only thing I've heard of being tossed was the Colt Walker, and that being so because they where cumbersome and heavy.