1851 bolt/cylinder lock issue

[tnlonghunter]

I bought an 1851 steel frame that was made sometime in the late 1970s for Bill Edwards (the guy in Afton, VA; I had a thread about it a bit ago).

For the most part it is in fantastic condition. There is one thing that I'm having a bit of trouble with however:

The cylinder stop protrudes back up through the frame at half-cock and stops the cylinder from turning. To advance the cylinder for loading I have to hold the hammer at about 1/4-cock.

The trigger/bolt spring is a wire spring, rather than a leaf spring like more recent makes. Disassembly and cleaning did not address the issue. Before I go messing with stuff, any suggestions on a course of action?

 

[Red Owl]

I'm not quite sure what you are describing. The function on the percussion guns is virtually the same as the later Peacemaker so any information on the Peacemaker can be applied. The wire spring should not be an issue. The bolt's leg slips off a cam on the hammer. To start, the cam forces the bolt to drop so the cylinder can rotate but after a certain point the tail of the bolt slips off this cam and the bolt bounces back up- to lock the cylinder in place.
If you are trying to cock the hammer and the bolt is not dropping- normally the leg on the bolt must be adjusted.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Gotcha. For more clarity:

When I cock the hammer, the bolt drops into the frame until just before half-cock. By half-cock it has rebounded back up into the frame to lock the cylinder in place. So, it's rebounding early. That's why I wondered about the spring; if it was too strong or something. It sounds like the interaction between the bolt, trigger, and hammer is off.

 

[45D]

The bolt arm is sliding off the cam way too early. Probably shaving the cam as it does so. The more you cycle it, the worse it will get.

Mike

 

[tnlonghunter]

The bolt arm is sliding off the cam way too early. Probably shaving the cam as it does so. The more you cycle it, the worse it will get.

Mike

Ok, so it probably needs a new bolt arm?

 

[Phfinneuss]

I ve had this kinda thing happen a lot. I fire these a lot. I have made temp hand and combo (bolt/trigger) springs out of wire. I ve had to adjust the tension on the combination spring mostly. The timing is v e r y sensitive. With only a little bit of an adjustment, the timing can be made to adjust, down or up, so to say.

One of my Colt Pockets was doing what you seem to be describing. The screw for the combo spring was slightly loose. I tightened it and it has been performing flawlessly ever since. Others with various stages of wear simply needed spacers or whatever. The combo spring tension has proved to be the part needing the most attention for the bolt timing for me.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Odds are the bolt and maybe the hammer, if the cam on the hammer is damaged a new bolt won’t help. If everything is in good order the bolt should pop up in the lead to the notch in the cylinder. The spring should apply about three pounds of pressure to the bolt.

 

[William Lincoln]

Disassemble and polish--especially hammer. Also replacement springs are
available--older guns think polishing.

 

[45D]

Ok, so it probably needs a new bolt arm?

No, probably a new bolt and the cam will depend on "how far gone" . . .

The over sprung bolt spring is the most common cause.

Mike

 

[tnlonghunter]

No, probably a new bolt and the cam will depend on "how far gone" . . .

The over sprung bolt spring is the most common cause.

Mike

Based on your thinking plus a couple other posts, I'm thinking I'll make sure all the bearing surfaces are polished and then try to remove a little tension from the bolt spring if that doesn't work.

 

[45D]

I'm sorry but over tensioned springs don't account for poor setups or ill fitting parts. Parts are parts and springs apply pressure to those parts. If the parts are right , the amount of tension won't change that. If it does, the parts are wrong which is typically what you get "out of the box". It's very mechanical and the parts fit is supreme. Lighter tension just means longer life/ less stress. One of the best reasons for tuning is to make your parts do exactly what they're supposed to do the most efficient way with appropriate spring tension.

Mike

 

[bang]

Since it drops correctly I would suspect the cam on the hammer.
Or if used a previous owner may have diddled with the bolt arm at the hammer or has become deformed from neglect.
Spring tension generally not enough to cause problem unless the spring tension has been increased be reforming. Spring tension can be slightly decreased by adding a thin washer, maybe 2, under the spring at attach screw.
If you have or a friend has an 1851 it would be plausible to try changing the hammer to see if it fixes the problem.
If it is a Pietta or compatible Cabelas and some other parts merchants have replacement internal kits that have bolt, hammer, springs and hand. Trigger too if I remember correctly.

 

[Red Owl]

First, on the lock work. With the Colt lock work one part often does several things or interacts with other parts- so if you take a part and fix it all of a sudden that problem is solved but now you have a new problem. You therefore need a book explaining all
https://www.amazon.com/Colt-single-...=The+Colt+Single+Action&qid=1638198656&sr=8-2I know it is a little pricey but you will refer to it over and over and it will become a treasure.
In any event the parts on the lock work are supposed to be heat treated/case hardened so wear and tear should not be an issue. This habit of the bolt popping up early. If you stop at a gun store and test out either a percussion or peacemaker- you can hear the bolt pop up and on most of them it is always early. It seems to be the nature of what is made today. It doesn't do any harm except that the bolt will rub on the cylinder and wear off the blue- so that you have a shiny mark on the cylinder.
You can rebuild the lock work, ideally the bolt should pop up in the leade area, the scalloped notch right before the actual cut for the bolt. After the gun locks you should only have to draw back the hammer another 1/8" before it goes into full cock. If you have to pull back farther it puts a stress on the lock work. A lot of the guns made today actually go into full cock BEFORE the bolt locks up but the shooter is unaware of it because they pull the hammer as far back as possible. For any one following this thread- try it- very slowly draw back the hammer and see if you can get it to full cock before the cylinder moves enough for the bolt to lock into place. I'll bet 1/3 of you will find out such is the case.
In any event get the book- worth every cent.

 

[Red Owl]

Sorry- I never addressed your problem. The leg on the bolt needs to be bent- it should hopefully bend without snapping off but be careful. Bend it just a tad in toward the cam, the idea that the cam must move a little farther in order for the tail on the bolt to slide off- if that makes sense. The spring shouldn't have anything to do with it and the cam on the hammer should not have anything to do with it- that is, sure you could build up the cam and get the same result but remember these guns are mass produced and everyone else's cam works okay so why should your cam be faulty. If the manufacturer had time an employee ought to test all the guns for timing and adjust the tail on the bolt if needed but as I said, if it works- they just ship them. If you need a new Bolt- Dixie Gun Works or Gun Parts, West Hurley New York are good sources.

 

[45D]

Based on your thinking plus a couple other posts, I'm thinking I'll make sure all the bearing surfaces are polished and then try to remove a little tension from the bolt spring if that doesn't work.

Hey! Re-reading these posts, it may be a little confusing. Polishing is one thing but knowing how and where is something else. You'll cause more harm with rounded edges and corners of certain parts. The Jerry Kuhnhausen book spoken of is an excellent source for deciphering and correcting problems.

One thing to get straight is bolt "drop". Descention into the frame isn't " bolt drop". Bolt drop happens when the left bolt arm falls off the front of the cam and the head of the bolt contacts the cylinder.

In my posts above about spring tension vs parts fit, it sounds a little confusing but, an ill fit bolt arm sliding off the side of the cam causes wear to the cam and depending on the amount of tension from the bolt spring, can pretty much slice a cam off the hammer in short order. I had that happen to a brand new '60 Army from Pietta back in 2016. The revolver was sent to me by Denis Prisbrey for an article he was writing for Guns of the Old West mag. It was still early in my tuning career and what this experience taught me was NOT to cycle a customer's revolver any more than the couple of times it takes to check trigger engagement and timing. In about 30 cycles of this new revolver the cam was almost totally destroyed!! I had to make and install a new cam . . . for a brand new revolver . . . that was going to be written up on for an article!!
Anyway, the Magazine went under late that year and the article was printed in the new 2017 Buyer's guide for HANDGUNS magazine. So, the point is the parts fit was bad to begin with, the added spring tension accelerated the wear fantastically!! Since then, I only cycle a customers revolver enough for evaluation!

As far as timing, the new revolvers are typically LATE in bolt drop which is why most out of the box examples have material being pushed into the locking notches the more they are cycled. The bolt should be down on the cylinder (dropped) at least a bolt width before the notch. And yes, 3 to 4 lbs is enough tension for the bolt to work properly. Full cock and lockup should happen simultaneously in a correctly timed S.A. revolver.

Mike

 

[tnlonghunter]

Thanks all of you for such detailed, thoughtful responses. I'll take a close look at the book, for sure. I'm caught between wanting to be able to fully understand these inner workings - and do as much of my own care, maintenance, and tuning as possible - vs. not necessarily planning to go real deep into another shooting hobby (yeah, setting boundaries like that always works out....).

But either way, I know this will help me get sorted out whether to dive in or send it off to a pro.

 

[Red Owl]

Didn't know the tail of the bolt could wear the cam- thanks.

 

[45D]

Didn't know the tail of the bolt could wear the cam- thanks.

Yessir. The arm sliding off the side wears incrementally and only gets worse as cycling continues. This is usually what is happening when folks start noticing the timing is changing. If you catch it early enough, you can save the cam, otherwise you'll need to drill a hole and make a new one (or buy a new hammer). If it's a removable cam, you can "clock" it to get new material involved.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Odds are the bolt and maybe the hammer, if the cam on the hammer is damaged a new bolt won’t help. If everything is in good order the bolt should pop up in the lead to the notch in the cylinder. The spring should apply about three pounds of pressure to the bolt.

yup

 

[Red Owl]

Most of the books I've read don't touch on this. BTW for those reading all this- some Colts have a insert type bushing for the cylinder pin and apparently others don't- so there are some differences between models. The hammer is pretty expensive, the cam- if it is inserted, then by rotating that brings new surface area into play?