old english sheepdog
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?1812 Sutton
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galamb
58 Cal.
Can't help you with a source for parts but I believe you have a contract musket that was built by Water's and Co.
Prior to 1813 the locks were stamped "Sutton" (the town where they were made) and then stamped Millbury in 1814 and later (changed the towns name).
It has been converted to percussion at some point, it was originally flint. This may have been done by the Waters & Co. themselves at a later date.
I have at least one quote where the ordinance department of South Carolina paid 2 dollars each to have 5960 muskets converted (altered) to percussion by the maker/mfg in 1853.
It appears that "thousands" of these were produced, in one form or another, under contract for a few decades. That may indicate that original parts may not be super difficult to come by.
(source is "American Military Shoulder Arms Vol II and Vol III")
Prior to 1813 the locks were stamped "Sutton" (the town where they were made) and then stamped Millbury in 1814 and later (changed the towns name).
It has been converted to percussion at some point, it was originally flint. This may have been done by the Waters & Co. themselves at a later date.
I have at least one quote where the ordinance department of South Carolina paid 2 dollars each to have 5960 muskets converted (altered) to percussion by the maker/mfg in 1853.
It appears that "thousands" of these were produced, in one form or another, under contract for a few decades. That may indicate that original parts may not be super difficult to come by.
(source is "American Military Shoulder Arms Vol II and Vol III")
Many Klatch
69 Cal.
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The ramrod is easy if you are handy. Track of the Wolf should have what you need. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=ramrod
It looks like the nipple bolster is broken off in your photos. You will probably need to find a blackpowder gunsmith to fix that item.
Many Klatch
It looks like the nipple bolster is broken off in your photos. You will probably need to find a blackpowder gunsmith to fix that item.
Many Klatch
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Simply put, what you've got is the mythical "M.1808" a private contract pattern musket that's been shortened with the middle barrel band discarded AND converted to percussion, probably in the late 1850's, using the 'first' or "French" style conversion technique. That was the easy part!
Although there was a "John Sutton-gunsmith. 55 Duke St., Philadelphia, Penn., 1819"...he's a red herring here. He had me going for a while too!
What happened was that in 1808 the U.S. started getting the fidgets with everything going on in Europe and the British behavior in the Atlantic. So for it's own protection, Congress passed an "Act for Arming and Equipping the Militia" and ordered 85,200 muskets from 19 private makers (of which, probably half were ever finished)for "...arming and equipping the militia". So far, doing what they said. Some went to militia units as delivered, some went to the Federal armories till needed. Should add a this point, the guns in question were in fact copies of the original U.S. made copies of French "Charleville" muskets of AWI vintage. The thing gets hard to follow when it comes out the Federal armories at Springfield, Mass. and Harpers Ferry, Virginia, each made a slightly different version of what became known as the M.1795 Flintlock Musket. Each armory made their own version with different stock architecture, fittings and barrel length...everybody's happy since the Vir. guns go to southern states and Mass. guns go to northern states...and never the twain shall meet! Comes 1808 and Congress needs 85,000+ more!
One of the 19 private gunmakers contracted for this work is the firm of Elijah and Asa Waters and Nathanial Whitmore of Sutton, Massachusetts who get a contract for 5,000 muskets, of which it's now thought they actually finished around 4,270 pieces. The thinking of the day was that with private makers, use the town name rather than the maker's firm name. Not sure who's bright flash that was, but it lasted a while and is one of the reasons the M.1841 Rifle, besides being known as the "Mississippi" rifle for it's use by the First Mississippi Volunteers, is also known as a "Windsor" rifle...Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence stamping their location of Windsor, Vt. on the lock...but I digress!
Actually, the M.1795/'1808'(which really doesn't exist, except collectors in the early 20th century needed something to call all the 1808 contract guns)was a three band, .69 caliber smoothbore musket. Due to their location, Waters would have received one of the Springfield Armory "Charleville" types of M.1795 muskets with instructions to 'make'm like this'. Their production would probably have a 1808 or 1809 date at the tail of the lock, would have been stamped or engraved with an eagle over a panel with a small "U.S." above "Sutton" on lock forward of the hammer...a couple other variations exist for Waters but these would be marked "Millbury" where they set up an additional shop for the contract.
These muskets can also have state militia markings on barrel or stock as well, which can effect value in fine graded pieces. All these contact pieces should have been issued with 44" or 45" barrels, depending on which armory they got their "example" from, though some 42" or 43" inch barrels have been noted on these 1808 contract muskets. All would have been full size with three barrel bands.
Yours was shortened at some time in it's existence, though exactly when or why is speculative. Measure the barrel and let us know, just for information sake. There are a very few examples of shortened barrels at 33", now thought to be for artillery but not a known issue piece. I have no idea who did the percussion conversion but the hammer is of the "French" conversion type. The drum would obviously have been round and I suppose you can find one to fit if you want to try to bring it back to it's original post-conversion appearance. As for ramrod, since it's been altered already, don't spend the dollars trying to hunt down an original. We have in my wife's family, an old M.1816 percussion conversion in NRA "grungy" condition. I bought a copy ramrod from Dixie, buried it in the back yard off the back porch and played fountain on it in the dark for a couple months. It got really "authentic"! :rotf: Pits, color and all. Clean off and it looks just like the rest...gun will never be fired so what difference will it make? Still haven't told the step-son how it got so 'authentic' looking! :haha: May not be your cup of tea, but buried and water poured will do the same but take a bit longer. :wink:
Better stop before this becomes an epistle! I hope this helps you figure out your baby. It's homegrown...,Mass. wise, and probably has an interesting history. Read all this drivel a couple times...if it still doesn't make sense, I'll try to answer any part you have questions about. Good luck and have fun making that neat old musket look better! :thumbsup:
Although there was a "John Sutton-gunsmith. 55 Duke St., Philadelphia, Penn., 1819"...he's a red herring here. He had me going for a while too!
What happened was that in 1808 the U.S. started getting the fidgets with everything going on in Europe and the British behavior in the Atlantic. So for it's own protection, Congress passed an "Act for Arming and Equipping the Militia" and ordered 85,200 muskets from 19 private makers (of which, probably half were ever finished)for "...arming and equipping the militia". So far, doing what they said. Some went to militia units as delivered, some went to the Federal armories till needed. Should add a this point, the guns in question were in fact copies of the original U.S. made copies of French "Charleville" muskets of AWI vintage. The thing gets hard to follow when it comes out the Federal armories at Springfield, Mass. and Harpers Ferry, Virginia, each made a slightly different version of what became known as the M.1795 Flintlock Musket. Each armory made their own version with different stock architecture, fittings and barrel length...everybody's happy since the Vir. guns go to southern states and Mass. guns go to northern states...and never the twain shall meet! Comes 1808 and Congress needs 85,000+ more!
One of the 19 private gunmakers contracted for this work is the firm of Elijah and Asa Waters and Nathanial Whitmore of Sutton, Massachusetts who get a contract for 5,000 muskets, of which it's now thought they actually finished around 4,270 pieces. The thinking of the day was that with private makers, use the town name rather than the maker's firm name. Not sure who's bright flash that was, but it lasted a while and is one of the reasons the M.1841 Rifle, besides being known as the "Mississippi" rifle for it's use by the First Mississippi Volunteers, is also known as a "Windsor" rifle...Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence stamping their location of Windsor, Vt. on the lock...but I digress!
Actually, the M.1795/'1808'(which really doesn't exist, except collectors in the early 20th century needed something to call all the 1808 contract guns)was a three band, .69 caliber smoothbore musket. Due to their location, Waters would have received one of the Springfield Armory "Charleville" types of M.1795 muskets with instructions to 'make'm like this'. Their production would probably have a 1808 or 1809 date at the tail of the lock, would have been stamped or engraved with an eagle over a panel with a small "U.S." above "Sutton" on lock forward of the hammer...a couple other variations exist for Waters but these would be marked "Millbury" where they set up an additional shop for the contract.
These muskets can also have state militia markings on barrel or stock as well, which can effect value in fine graded pieces. All these contact pieces should have been issued with 44" or 45" barrels, depending on which armory they got their "example" from, though some 42" or 43" inch barrels have been noted on these 1808 contract muskets. All would have been full size with three barrel bands.
Yours was shortened at some time in it's existence, though exactly when or why is speculative. Measure the barrel and let us know, just for information sake. There are a very few examples of shortened barrels at 33", now thought to be for artillery but not a known issue piece. I have no idea who did the percussion conversion but the hammer is of the "French" conversion type. The drum would obviously have been round and I suppose you can find one to fit if you want to try to bring it back to it's original post-conversion appearance. As for ramrod, since it's been altered already, don't spend the dollars trying to hunt down an original. We have in my wife's family, an old M.1816 percussion conversion in NRA "grungy" condition. I bought a copy ramrod from Dixie, buried it in the back yard off the back porch and played fountain on it in the dark for a couple months. It got really "authentic"! :rotf: Pits, color and all. Clean off and it looks just like the rest...gun will never be fired so what difference will it make? Still haven't told the step-son how it got so 'authentic' looking! :haha: May not be your cup of tea, but buried and water poured will do the same but take a bit longer. :wink:
Better stop before this becomes an epistle! I hope this helps you figure out your baby. It's homegrown...,Mass. wise, and probably has an interesting history. Read all this drivel a couple times...if it still doesn't make sense, I'll try to answer any part you have questions about. Good luck and have fun making that neat old musket look better! :thumbsup:
gunmaker43
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Dixie gun works used to list lots a old parts, mite call 'em. Have a translator handy as they don't speak the King's "Anglich" yonder ways...good luck...Tom (from those same parts)
Hey Sheepie! Now that I've been smart enough to check the 'link', it looks like the gun was also restamped for date on the lock's tail. hard to make out for sure but looks like "1812*" or "1842*"...either way it's an novel oddity. I can actually see traces of the eagle and "U.S." as well. Even more cool! :wink:
old english sheepdog
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"Measure the barrel and let us know, just for information sake. There are a very few examples of shortened barrels at 33", now thought to be for artillery but not a known issue piece"
The barrel is 33" Thanks for your response. I now know a little more than I did about this old musket.
The barrel is 33" Thanks for your response. I now know a little more than I did about this old musket.
old english sheepdog
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Yes, it says 1812 and a US above the Sutton
Probably 1842. That's roughly in the time period that the military was converting the "old fashioned flintlocks" to percussion.
old english sheepdog
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Nope, its definitely 1812 see photo
Interesting, do check it over for marks on the barrel and stock...sometimes additional info can be gleaned from these, particularly if they're associated to some regiment, etc. I'm afraid the barrel length thing is more fascinating than useful. The only known issue of 36" barrels was what is called the M.1817 Flintlock Artillery Musket and these were basically the Springfield guns and are a mix of parts...even these had three bands.
Another interesting variation were 1/3 of those issued the 15th Infantry, who were trained to fight in 3 ranks instead of the traditional 2 ranks in use in most militaries, including our own. The idea was to have the normal two lines of guys with muskets and a rear rank of guys with 12 foot long pikes and whacking a foot off their muskets. Since they didn't need bayonets, they got issued swords. As odd as this sounds, the 15th actually used this tactic in the assault of York, Canada, in April, 1813. If push came to shove, so to speak, the rear rank could use their shortened muskets to the deafening of the front ranks! :wink: FWIW: they were also one of the regiments issued out the grey uniforms made famous by Scott's brigade at Chippewa and Lundy's Lane. Not saying yours is one of those but find 15th Infantry marks and it's time for the Dance of Joy!! :haha:
Another interesting variation were 1/3 of those issued the 15th Infantry, who were trained to fight in 3 ranks instead of the traditional 2 ranks in use in most militaries, including our own. The idea was to have the normal two lines of guys with muskets and a rear rank of guys with 12 foot long pikes and whacking a foot off their muskets. Since they didn't need bayonets, they got issued swords. As odd as this sounds, the 15th actually used this tactic in the assault of York, Canada, in April, 1813. If push came to shove, so to speak, the rear rank could use their shortened muskets to the deafening of the front ranks! :wink: FWIW: they were also one of the regiments issued out the grey uniforms made famous by Scott's brigade at Chippewa and Lundy's Lane. Not saying yours is one of those but find 15th Infantry marks and it's time for the Dance of Joy!! :haha:
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
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It appears to be a M1808 made by Waters and Whitmore. This company was headed by Elijah Waters, Asa Waters, Jr. and Nathaniel Whitmore of Sutton MA. The Waters brothers were the sons of Asa Waters, Sr. who had started the Sutton-Waters Armory and produced muskets for the Committee of Safety during the Revolution.
The 1812 date on the lock places this piece at the end of a 5,000 musket contract made on Sept. 8, 1808. 3,000 muskets were recorded delivered by Oct. 7, 1812. It has been shortened and it appears that the double fore-end band may have come from either a M1835 flintlock musket or the M1842 percussion musket. Zooming in on the picture didn't make it any clearer. If you can provide a better picture of it, it would be easier to tell. The barrel should be marked US and have the proofmark P and an eagle head in a circle. Elijah Waters died in 1814 and Asa Jr. became the sole proprietor. He supplied muskets and pistols to the government well into the middle of the 19th Century.
The 1812 date on the lock places this piece at the end of a 5,000 musket contract made on Sept. 8, 1808. 3,000 muskets were recorded delivered by Oct. 7, 1812. It has been shortened and it appears that the double fore-end band may have come from either a M1835 flintlock musket or the M1842 percussion musket. Zooming in on the picture didn't make it any clearer. If you can provide a better picture of it, it would be easier to tell. The barrel should be marked US and have the proofmark P and an eagle head in a circle. Elijah Waters died in 1814 and Asa Jr. became the sole proprietor. He supplied muskets and pistols to the government well into the middle of the 19th Century.
old english sheepdog
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does this help
Tumblernotch
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Those URLs don't work when I paste them on my PB account. You'll probably have to post a direct link to it.
old english sheepdog
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Try again
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
It is a shortened M1795 Type III contract musket, the front band is the correct type. Whether shortened in military service or by a civilian user is impossible to know. The "unknowable" does detract from the value of the piece since it is no longer original but it is interesting.
Tumblernotch
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Still cannot get the image. VA, from what little I can see that band looks like the one found on the Special Model 1812 or the '35 and '42 models with the scrolled cutout. Maybe I'm not seeing it good enough. The one picture is kinda fuzzy when I zoom on it.
old english sheepdog
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