1770s Flintlock rifle

[SgtErv]

Greetings,

So, the photo below shows a rifle that belong to a great (x a few) uncle. I'm transcribing some details from it. I'm trying to track down the actual rifle itself, as it's possible it still exists. It's an ancestral weapon, and would love to find out exactly what type it is. My guess is a 1770s Lancaster, but I am no expert.

I'm actually shopping for a custom rifle and this was quite a find.





From the book in which this was found:

"I am the owner of an old flint-lock rifle, said to be used in this skirmish [1783 or 1784], either by John Reger...or his younger brother Abram [my great uncles]. The rifle is full stocked with hard maple, and has the old fashioned brass tallow box in the side of the stock. On the lid of this box, in large Spencerian capitals are the clear cut letters, "A.D.R." On the barrel, near the breech, in Roman figures and small English capitals, is this inscription:
105 Va Regt Washington
The lettering is plain and legible, though crudely executed. The gun weighs 9 pounds, 14 ounces, and measures full length 56 and 1/4 inches. The barrel is 40 inches. It was, doubtless, originally some two or more inches longer but was subsequently shortened at the breech on account of being 'burned out.' It takes a ball one-half inch in diameter...The rear sight is extremely fine, and formerly was 11 inches from the breech, but has at sometime been set back on the barrel 4 inches. The bead or front sight is silver...It was supposedly the property of an elder brother, Anthony Reger, who was an ensign int he 13th Virginia Regiment, Revolutionary War. The regimental number, if such, on the barrel does not correspond with that of Reger's regiment, but it is not known that he owned it during the war; nor can it at this time be determined that the number is regimental. It may be an enrollment number..."

Then the author states that there was a 10th VA Regt of militia formed in 1799 in Washington County, VA, but asserts that the rifle was in use during the Revolution.

This was found in The Border Settlers of Northwestern Virginia written by Lucullus Virgil McWhorter.

Bit of a mystery, but from an untrained eye it does look to be of a similar design to 1770s rifles.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It is very hard to see in the photo but the lock looks to have a double throated flint cock similar to those made in England during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The lock also appears to have a roller on the frizzen spring, a feature not found on any Rev War period firearms unless the lock was replaced at a later date. Again the photos are not clear but I don't believe the gun was made before 1800 unless parts were replaced. The styling around the lock panels also suggests a gun from the 19th century but I really cannot tell from the photos. Certainly, the patch box is an old style similar to those used on some Rev War period guns. It looks like it was meant to have side panels.

dave

 

[SgtErv]

Too late to edit...this is pretty important though...

"The original lock is not on the gun, but still retains a typical flint-lock."

That would explain a replaced part, although it'll make it nearly impossible to identify.

And thank you Mr. Pearson, your knowledge has been very helpful in all my threads!

 

That looks more like a drawing than a photo?

Anyway, what is it that you are trying to identify?

 

[SgtErv]

Photo was taken in 1915 or so, and the book is a reprint that's pretty much a photocopy. Just trying to figure out what style of rifle this is. The stock looks sort of like Isaac Haines, Christian Spring, or Lancaster, based on a very rudimentary search. Of course, I'm only just beginning in this hobby so I could be completely in left field

 

[Stophel]

Not even close. 1810- 1820s or so. I'm thinking Virginia/West Virginia, but this is not "my" region. :wink:

In previous times (still today, to a great extent), ALL flintlock guns were "used in the Revolution". Half of them were owned by Daniel Boone himself.

 

[Artificer]

Can you post a better picture or drawing of the patch box?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I just went through "Long Rifles of Virginia" by Butler and Whisker as I was thinking the same thing.

Gus

 

[jbwilliams3]

It's far more likely it used in the War of 1812 than in the Revolution. Great rifle, though. It would be a fantastic heirloom if it were still in existence.

 

[SgtErv]

Looks to be kind of a rounded arrow.

LV MchWhorter was an expert on the Nez Perce and Washington area tribes. He was born in WV and was close family friends with the Regers. As far as I can tell this book was written because he was highly interested in the area personally as opposed to academically.

I would not be surprised, however, if he were to have embellished this particular item.

He did say "supposedly" used the the Revolution. :hmm: Haha

 

[Artificer]

Does the rifle in your picture have wood between the lid and outer edges of the patch box and a front end of the patchbox that looks like this?
http://americanlongrifles.com/images/Virginia.jpg

Gus

 

[SgtErv]

I can't tell if that's wood within the interior of the patchbox border. Sadly, that's the bed picture I can get at the moment. Does the link you gave go to a specific post? I fiddled with it and can't get it to open

 

[Artificer]

Sorry about that, it worked twice yesterday.

OK, Google the following words all together: Long Rifles of Virginia, Butler, Whisker

It should come up with images and the one I'm referring to is the Sort of Turquoise Cover of a Book, showing the rear of a lock going back to the butt plate.

Gus

 

[SgtErv]

I found an image of that book cover. While it does look similar, from what I can tell in the picture, the top of the patchbox looks to be a rounded arrow.

Interesting in that searching around I found examples of rifles from Hampshire County, WV. (Then VA). That's exactly where this family emigrated from, and some of them were present there as late as 1784.

I am still working on finding this actual rifle. I have couple phone calls to make, one to the university that received the family bible as a donation.

Also, I'm beginning to realize that with this many factors, that bad photograph is going to cut it with identification hahaha

 

[Artificer]

In "Longrifles of Virginia," and for Hampshire county I wonder are you describing what is actually an acorn on the front of the patchbox? This shows up on guns in the book from that country by J.J. Good, Nathanial Oats (Oates), and Nathanial Offutt.

The other and somewhat earlier front of patchboxes made and used by the Sheetz family of gunsmiths in Hampshire county show something you may be describing in that they used stylized a "Hunter's Star." Some of them have a single point of the star facing forward that may be what you are describing.

If you could make and post a good drawing of the patchbox on the forum, perhaps we can help you more.

Gus

 

[SgtErv]

I did see those on the search. Thanks a bunch! This is actually quite helpful. I'm going to redouble my efforts to track it down.

In any event, this is a rather fascinating topic , and I'm even more blown away by the depth of your all's knowledge

 

[Artificer]

I purchased "Longrifles of Virginia" back in the late 70's. I was hoping to find an ancestor who was a gunsmith in Virginia and information on AWI and Pre AWI rifles. I was disappointed on both counts, so it has remained in my library without much use until more recently. I have been pleased it has proven a little useful in this thread.

Gus

 

[54ball]

I agree with others, From the little evidence shown I would place this rifle circa 1800-1810 Virginia/SW Virginia and points to the South and West of that area.

Its possible the rifle may be a restock of an earlier barrel and furniture. It's also possible that it's been relocked...maybe several times even percussion.
Who knows? Likely we never will know as most likely this rifle is lost to history.
Personally I don't buy any Rev War attribution. It does not make sense on so many levels. Honestly what makes the most sense as far as the markings...fraud or even a honest mistake by a well meaning descendant. A century ago these rifles were virtually worthless. Scratch on some Rev War markings from real or imagined units and you have a treasure that might bring you 5 bucks at the rummage sale in 1915.
With that said you never say never in historical research but I find the Rev War story doubtful. If anything dates to that time it would be the barrel.

All is conjecture though.

If found today that rifle would have value as a transition piece from the earlier Pennsylvania/NC/Virginia styles to the later Mountain style of the Appalachians IMHO.

 

[Beckchen]

Greetings,

So, the photo below shows a rifle that belong to a great (x a few) uncle. I'm transcribing some details from it. I'm trying to track down the actual rifle itself, as it's possible it still exists. It's an ancestral weapon, and would love to find out exactly what type it is. My guess is a 1770s Lancaster, but I am no expert.

I'm actually shopping for a custom rifle and this was quite a find.





From the book in which this was found:

"I am the owner of an old flint-lock rifle, said to be used in this skirmish [1783 or 1784], either by John Reger...or his younger brother Abram [my great uncles]. The rifle is full stocked with hard maple, and has the old fashioned brass tallow box in the side of the stock. On the lid of this box, in large Spencerian capitals are the clear cut letters, "A.D.R." On the barrel, near the breech, in Roman figures and small English capitals, is this inscription:
105 Va Regt Washington
The lettering is plain and legible, though crudely executed. The gun weighs 9 pounds, 14 ounces, and measures full length 56 and 1/4 inches. The barrel is 40 inches. It was, doubtless, originally some two or more inches longer but was subsequently shortened at the breech on account of being 'burned out.' It takes a ball one-half inch in diameter...The rear sight is extremely fine, and formerly was 11 inches from the breech, but has at sometime been set back on the barrel 4 inches. The bead or front sight is silver...It was supposedly the property of an elder brother, Anthony Reger, who was an ensign int he 13th Virginia Regiment, Revolutionary War. The regimental number, if such, on the barrel does not correspond with that of Reger's regiment, but it is not known that he owned it during the war; nor can it at this time be determined that the number is regimental. It may be an enrollment number..."

Then the author states that there was a 10th VA Regt of militia formed in 1799 in Washington County, VA, but asserts that the rifle was in use during the Revolution.

This was found in The Border Settlers of Northwestern Virginia written by Lucullus Virgil McWhorter.

Bit of a mystery, but from an untrained eye it does look to be of a similar design to 1770s rifles.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Beckchen]

I can send you a current photo of the Reger Rifle you are referring to that you discovered in “Border Settlers of Northwestern Virginia” by L.V. McWhorter. I am his Great Granddaughter.