1" groups at 25 yards, 10" at 50 yards?

[towgunner11h]

Sorry but I have to ask- are you focusing on your front sight?

 

[TreeMan]

If you’re not shooting from a bench with a good rest you’re not getting the best from your rifle. You need to continue to work on a good load and accuracy from your rifle. All of this from a bench rest. Once you find that sweet load then start shooting offhand. A thicker patch is where I’d start. I’ve had many rifles that would shoot one hole groups with a rock wrapped in toilet paper at 25 yards (sarcasm). Not so much at 50 until I worked and tinkered with my load. Get your rifle shooting one hole groups at 25 from a bench then try it at 50.

 

[Erwan]

YES this is true for CVA and Traditions "longrifle" locks and it should be located here if there is one..., if not, check to see if the screw is missing.

LD

Yep, we call that the screw "piège à con Ardesa" (something like "dummy trap" in your language) : one time too light and another to heavy, for hunting I don't know, but for target shooting we try to immobilize it with glue or nail polish...

 

[Ohio Rusty]

Lots of advise .... can you weigh your ball ?? Maybe some if hand cast have a void or bubble off center in the ball that would affect the accuracy of the ball down range. It might wobble while it spins. If you can weigh your ball see if the ball have different weights. Lighter ball means they have a bubble in them somewhere.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[Loyalist Dave]

but for target shooting we try to immobilize it with glue or nail polish...

We use a special product called "locktite"...

LD

 

[Erwan]

We use a special product called "locktite"...

Like us... red or green, the Loctite glue ?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Like us... red or green, the Loctite ?

Red, green, even purple....
BUT..., nail polish in a pinch if one cannot get the locktite.
LD

 

[longcruise]

I don't think it's a shooting skill or technique problem.

If you are loading as easily as you described, it's at least a part of the problem. Pick up a few of your fired patches. They should be intact with no cutting or raggedness except around the edges. Take a picture of the patches and upload here.

 

[necchi]

Red, green, even purple....
BUT..., nail polish in a pinch if one cannot get the locktite.
LD

A bottle of clear nail polish has been a staple in my shooting box for years.
The stuff is "field expedient" for a multitude of quick fix situations and still easy to manage later when time allows for proper repair.
I've actually found "locktite" to be a little grievous when used with the simple spanish locks, With the cleaning and lubrication that's constantly needed with the unbridled style and it's loose tolerances,, having that screw being "just a little Gummy" in it's setting helps with the adjustment that needs to be made. With nothing is done,, that screw slips out of adjustment quickly,
,I swear there is a Gremlin that show's up everyday just to mess with that screw!!

 

[Ironoxide]

You already got lots of great advice in this thread

But no one mentioned this (unless I missed it). Have you tried shooting 50 yards with a bigger target? Ideally one with a white dot at 10 ring. I realise you're an experienced airgun shooter, but this is just in case. Another thing that is very important to focus your eyes on the front post, but as you're getting 1 inch groups at 25yrds you're most likely already doing that

Also, definitely shoot off the bench with your elbows supported while developing a load. A sturdy wooden support for the rifle is optional, but helpful.

Finally, many experienced people have very good results with higher powder charges with slow twist small bore round ball rifles. I'm the opposite. I'm having good results with small'ish charges (projectile speeds in ~1600), but it may be due to something specific I do. Perhaps the fact I use 3f powder.

Edit: One more thing, I remembered I had an opposite problem once. Very good groups at 100m, bad ones at 50. I was using a large buckhorn sight that involved a bit of "Kentucky windage" and while for 100m I was aligning the top of the front post with the top of the horns (quite precise), for 50 I had to put it slightly above the middle of the buckhorn aperture like a huge ghost ring. My centering was inconsistent for some reason.

Maybe your problem is sight related?

 

[Artificer]

But no one mentioned this (unless I missed it). Have you tried shooting 50 yards with a bigger target? Ideally one with a white dot at 10 ring.

I tripped across this back in the 1980's where one gun shop/range combination sold targets made that way, then lost it for a few years and finally went back to it for ALL shooting at ALL ranges, but especially for 100 yards.

I buy Avery brand 1" white dots at Office Depot or similar stores to put in the center of my practice targets shortly before I walk downrange to put the targets up. They don't come off, even with multiple hits until you shred them.

Amazon.com : Avery Self-Adhesive Removable Labels, 1-Inch Diameter, White, Pack of 600 (5410) : All Purpose Labels : Office Products

Gus

Edited to add: Some folks said they liked the Blaze Orange Dots better, BUT I found at all ranges and especially 100 yards, the Blaze Orange just fades closer to the black background and thus you don't get as precise of an aiming point as you do with White Dots on Black Bullseyes.

 

[Art Caputo]

While it’s not impossible, it’s unlikely the angular dispersion from 25 yards to 50 or 60 yards is going to increase by the amount you describe. However, overall group POI could be lower at longer distance due to the lighter charge/caliber you are using. IMO, the most common cause of what you are experiencing is sighting effects. Lighting, sight picture, clarity, focus on the front sight, follow-through, flinching, etc could contribute independently, or in combination. This rationale assumes all shooting is done from a proper bench set-up. IMO.

 

[Steel Guitar]

A lot of very good advise, my 2 cents.
Pyrodex is very sensitive to the amount of compression put on the powder with the ball. I had best results pushing the ball against the powder as hard as I could so that it was the same everytime. Less compression gives less velocity and a larger group. Shooting at 25yd and a good group could (probably) happened because of a short distance where the large difference in velocities wouldn't matter.
My advise, get some real black powder and use the pyrodex for plinking.
You'll get much better with the great advise thus far and real black powder won't try to rust your gun anything as bad as pyrodex. Good Luck Pard !

 

[CapnRon]

I have been silently perusing these boards for a few weeks and have learned a lot from you all - so thank you. I am the new owner of an old CVA Kentucky .45, gifted by a neighbor who had it in his closet for years. My first muzzleloading experience (actually, this is my first powder burner of any type. Been shooting high-powered air guns).

I must say, I think I am hooked. I've really been enjoying learning how to use this rifle, even though I have far to go and it takes forever to clean this beast, compared to an air rifle.

At first, I could barely hit a pizza box at 25 yards. It was all over the place. Trigger was extremely heavy pull - I had the wrong patch and ball size etc.

Experimented with patches, loads, holds, etc. and now have 1" groups at 25-30 yards. It's taken me about 50 or 60 shots to get to this point. An improvement but certainly not good enough.

I am using a .445 ball with a .010 patch, 40 grains of Pyrodex 2F (it's the only thing I could find available when I was shopping a few months ago.) I swab with one wet and one dry patch in between every shot. Spit lube seems to be working best for me at the moment.

I've tried up to 60 grains and the groups only seem to get worse.

So why are my groups almost acceptable at 25 but so incredibly huge at 50 yards?
(My guess: too light a charge and the ball doesn't have enough spin and starts to knuckleball after 30 yards or so.)

But why does 60 grains widen my groups?
(My guess: something wrong with my hold and the stronger kick is throwing me off.)

I am coming from airgunning to black powder. How should I hold this ol' Kentucky rifle?

My next plan is to try an even tighter patch, maybe a .015 since loading still seems fairly easy (I don't really need a ball starter currently.) Also going to try and find some 3F powder.

That's a lot of questions and I humbly thank you experienced black powder veterans for sharing your wisdom and/or laughter at my antics.

- G

P.S. I am a nerd and bought a chrony: 1260 fps at 40 grains. 1460 fps at 50 grains. 1540 at 60 grains.

First: you should be testing from a bench rest to eliminate variability from operator inconsistencies, hang fires, etc.. Usually, the tighter the patch, the better so definitely try that. Also, non-uniform lubrication of the patching can produce erratic results. Next, cutting of the patching by the riffling may be an issue. I have seen a lot of those old CVAs that would cut patches pretty bad. Collect some fired patches and check for cutting by rough grooves/lands. Next, if your rifle's nipple is installed in a drum instead of directly the breech, then pull the drum and see if it has a restricted path to the powder. Rough grooves/lands that cause patch cutting can be smoothed by lapping the barrel. A restricted path from a drum can be bored out or the threads on the drum cut back.

 

[Philip Lebow]

Dutch Shoultz's method to start.

 

[William O.]

Good advice here so far. Sounds like your load is good for 25 yards. Start from the beginning. Sighting in your rifle. Usually start with grains of powder=caliber. So for a .45 start with 45 grains. Shoot 3-5 shots a a target point and note the grouping. Do this and increase your load by 5 grains for each group. I find a 6 bull target great for this process. You should see the groups rise as the load gets larger and then peak out at a certain range. For that .45 I would guess that point is between 60 and 70 grains. Settle on the load that gives you the highest point of impact and tightest group with the least amount of powder. SO if 65 and 70 grains are both shooting a good tight group at the same altitude, go with a 65 grain load.
Once you have your load, then adjust the sights for zero. All of this should be off a steady bench rest hold.
Now its time to start practicing off hand. Note that these rifles with curved buttplates are made to be held at the cusp of the bicep and the shoulder with your arm parallel to the ground, not against your shoulder like most modern arms. Get good at 25, then practice at 50 and get confident at that range. Then try 100 ( or whatever various distances available at your range). When I got to the 100 yard distance it was the third trip to the range before I was hitting the target paper. After a year of practice I could fairly consistently score all shots on the 100 yard target (not great scores mind you, but they did score).

Excellent advice!

 

[Gsyme]

It's pretty neat for a beginner like me to ask a question and get so much help so quickly. I hope I will be able to be on the helping end some day. I am very appreciative and the wheels are already turning; planning my next outing to incorporate a lot of this sage advice.

There is so much here I actually need a little time to re-read it and take some notes before I can respond in detail.

A couple quick clarifiers:

- I wouldn't call myself a veteran airgunner, either - been at it only a year and feel good about my progress but you can just consider me a newbie shooter all around.

- I had already adjusted the trigger; that was one reason I was able to get my 25 yard groups down to 1" (they were 3-5" when I first started). But the note about the screw not staying put is quite helpful. I could have sworn the trigger has gotten heavier again since I first adjusted it.

- I'm shooting off the top of my car using a jacket as a rest. Maybe this isn't a stable enough position? Sandbag better?

- Follow-through is something I do try to practice with all my guns - but I am very unsure about proper holds for this ML. As one of you mentioned, one of my air rifles is most accurate with as light a hold as possible. Another, I hold the front stock down against the rest for best results. What's best with a ML? Should I be holding the front of the stock down? Not touching the front of the gun at all?

The note about the curved buttstock belonging at the top of my bicep rather than in my shoulder is well taken.

I hope to be back soon with pictures of patches. Thanks again to all and best,

Gsyme

P.S. Oh yes - I don't like the sights. They are both very shiny and hard to focus on, also, the elevation is not adjustable on the rear notch sight. I made myself a little temporary homemade peep and attached it to the rear notch - I felt like that also helped get me the 1" groups at 25 yards.

 

[Artificer]

P.S. Oh yes - I don't like the sights. They are both very shiny and hard to focus on, also, the elevation is not adjustable on the rear notch sight. I made myself a little temporary homemade peep and attached it to the rear notch - I felt like that also helped get me the 1" groups at 25 yards.

Flat black "engine" or "outdoor grill" paint will take care of the shiny sights problem, though you need to mask off the barrel and stock well all around the sights so as not to get any on the barrel or stock.

I keep a little can of "Sight Black" in my shooting box in case some finish or coating is lost an whenever I'm filing down front sights, to put a thin, fast drying coat over the exposed shiny brass or steel of the sight.

Birchwood Casey 33915 Sight Black 1.25 oz Aerosol | OnPoint (aimonpoint.com)

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

A cardboard core roll from toilet paper or paper towels can be made into a sun shade by cutting the tube lengthwise. The tube will clamp to the barrel and shade the sight. Two toilet paper cores or one paper towel roll core cut in two makes shades for the sights. These shades may fall off during recoil, but getting the glare off the sights compensates for replacing the shades for each shot.

 

[Gsyme]

And more excellent tips. I've attached a picture of three patches I was able to recover. They are fairly ragged. Been using these Daisy shaped patches from October Country.

RE: compression of powder

I've been shoving the ball down hard and bouncing the ramrod a few times every load based on an article from this gentleman, who has quite a few interesting posts:
ctmuzzleloaders.com

RE: sharp lands and crown on CVA

I definitely think the muzzle end of the bore has some sharp edges. Very hard to keep it from shaving little flakes off my wooden ramrod while loading.

RE: sticking with Pyramyd or Arizona

Airguns are definitely easier to clean and air is cheap (though inflation might change that.) But I think I was destined to shoot a real muzzle loader. I even built a homemade airgun that shoots .59 cal steel bearings and loads from the muzzle.