1:48 Twist and rifling depth?

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Danny Ross

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I have a Lyman Deerstalker 54cal with 1:48 Twist. How much improvement in accuracy/consistency would I expect see if I would send it and get the rifling cut deeper to make it strictly a roundball rifle. Never shot a conical and don't intend to start. I am use to really good accuracy with my 1:60 GPR's and my TC Renegades with 1:66 roundball barrels 1-2 inch groups at 50yds when I do my part off a rest. The Deerstalker does have a shorter sighting radius, which might be part of the problem. Just not use to 3-4 inch groups at 50yds. Yes that is minute of deer at 50yds, just use to better groups when shooting. I am just wondering if it would be worth the investment to have the rifling cut deeper or just accept what I am getting. Anyway I thought I would ask for any of you that have had it done or know of someone who's had it done and how much improvement was seen. DANNY
 

ohio ramrod

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I have had good experiences cutting the rifling deeper ( called refreshing ) on 45 caliber 1/48 barrels. They were shallow grooved and I recut them to .010 deep with good results .Clover leaf groups at 35 yards.
 

necchi

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Uhm? Doesn't that "change" the caliber" of the rifle?
Can you really "fresh" a 45 and still have a 45?
 

nkbj

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I have a Lyman Deerstalker 54cal with 1:48 Twist. How much improvement in accuracy/consistency would I expect see if I would send it and get the rifling cut deeper to make it strictly a roundball rifle. Never shot a conical and don't intend to start. I am use to really good accuracy with my 1:60 GPR's and my TC Renegades with 1:66 roundball barrels 1-2 inch groups at 50yds when I do my part off a rest. The Deerstalker does have a shorter sighting radius, which might be part of the problem. Just not use to 3-4 inch groups at 50yds. Yes that is minute of deer at 50yds, just use to better groups when shooting. I am just wondering if it would be worth the investment to have the rifling cut deeper or just accept what I am getting. Anyway I thought I would ask for any of you that have had it done or know of someone who's had it done and how much improvement was seen. DANNY
Good morning Danny.
There's no telling what you would have if the grooves were cut deeper. It could be different from what you have now but not necessarily better because the rifling you currently have may not be why you're getting three to four inch groups at fifty yards Or any how, at least that's what it looks like going off of the information provided so far.
If it's broke in and it's being loaded for the rifling it has then it oughta be shooting better than that.

There's a Traditions Deerhunter in the rack that is much alike, 24" barrel, .50 bore, 48" twist. Rifling not real deep and not real shallow. I'm much looking forwards to trying out round ball, minies and REAL's in it.
 

Loyalist Dave

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The Deerstalker does have a shorter sighting radius, which might be part of the problem. Just not use to 3-4 inch groups at 50yds. Yes that is minute of deer at 50yds, just use to better groups when shooting. I am just wondering if it would be worth the investment to have the rifling cut deeper or just accept what I am getting.
Hey Danny I think maybe you answered your own question. It might be the sight radius, but instead of dropping the coin for the barrel redo just yet, have you considered different sights?

I think I remember that Lyman uses the same sights on both your longer barrel rifles and the Deerstalker on older versions of the Deerstalker, and on new version uses sights with fiber optic inserts ? Yuck on the latter 🤢

So while that Deerstalker might be for some, good for getting a quick sight picture in low light at a short range target, that's all the advantage gained (imho). The old style irons on that short barrel or the new fiber optics are coarse sights. I'd suggest that you get a good pair of open iron sights with a thin front blade, and try those first. The Lyman factory irons on the longer barrels make that front sight smaller in your field of view, but on the short barrel that bull on the target is like trying to center a quarter on top of a 2x4 post. Tough to be precise. The fiber optics are even larger in persepective.

Replace the factory sights with something from Track of the Wolf, and see if your groups don't dramatically tighten. ;)

LD
 

deermanok

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Maybe try a different size ball.
I have a 50 caliber that I was shooting .490's out of and was getting not so good groups. I switched to a .495 ball and brought my 50 yard groups to 1 inch.
I also watched one of Idaho Lewis's videos where he used a double patch one of his stock 1/48 twist tc's. Very good accuracy with this method.
I tried it and it definitely works.
 

45man

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Yes indeed deeper rifling is better and when some makers went to button rifling it became impossible to get groups and a smaller ball and thinner patch did not help. With BP too smooth of a bore can ruin groups from a ball skidding and Bill Large told me a barrel will be "shot smooth" from patches. He said some BITE was needed.
 

Danny Ross

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Loyalist Dave,

This one has the flip up rear sight that is adjustable for elevation with the white diamond on it and a white dot front sight. You maybe right about the size of the the front sight compared to the target, but the front sight is round not flat, I use the apex of the white round sight to center the target on with a 6 o'clock hold on a 2 inch orange dot at 50yds. When my eyes were seeing better I would use a 1 inch dot as the target at that distance. Not now. DANNY
 

necchi

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I made a holder for my cutters that follows the grooves, cutting only the grooves , one groove at a time
Ok, after you have cut all of the grooves, one at a time, is the rifle still the same caliber as it was before you cut it deeper?
Searching for an answer here, or at least someone to explaining how you can cut barrel rifling deeper and still maintain the same bore diameter?
I may be misunderstanding and unable to grasp the concept of cutting more out and still being the same?
Doesn't cutting more out of a bore make it larger?
A 45 with .06 lands (as made) indicates that the bore is 45 with raised lands.
A 45 with .08 lands (as made) indicates that the bore is 45 with raised lands.
Cutting the grooves of a rifle with .06 lands deeper,, changes the bore, not the lands,
:dunno:,, right?
What am I missing?
 
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Nameless Hunter

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Ok, after you have cut all of the grooves, one at a time, is the rifle still the same caliber as it was before you cut it deeper?
Searching for an answer here, or at least someone to explaining how you can cut barrel rifling deeper and still maintain the same bore diameter?
I may be misunderstanding and unable to grasp the concept of cutting more out and still being the same?
Doesn't cutting more out of a bore make it larger?
A 45 with .06 lands (as made) indicates that the bore is 45 with raised lands.
A 45 with .08 lands (as made) indicates that the bore is 45 with raised lands.
Cutting the grooves of a rifle with .06 lands deeper,, changes the bore, not the lands,
:dunno:,, right?
What am I missing?
The barrel maker is cutting grooves, not lands - groove depth doesn't determine the bore.
The barrel on the left has 0.012" deep grooves.
The barrel on the right has 0.006" deep grooves.
The bore is the same on both barrels.

1633930891611.jpeg
 

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necchi

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Thank's Nameless, no reason to doubt you,, but I gotta let that sink in for awhile.
,,
Uhm, doesn't taking an exsicting .006 cutting deeper by another .006 change the measurement?
Your right, creating an 0.006 groove barrel at .500 would be the same as 0.012 groove barrel at.500
Doesn't changing 0.006 to 0.012 change the .500 aspect of your diagram by another 0.006?
making it .5006?
 
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Nameless Hunter

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Thank's Nameless, no reason to doubt you,, but I gotta let that sink in for awhile.
,,
Uhm, doesn't taking an exsicting .006 cutting deeper by another .006 change the measurement?

Doesn't changing 0.006 to 0.012 change the .500 aspect of your diagram by another 0.006?
making it .5006?
Nope.
The barrel maker starts with a 0.500" bore and cuts grooves into the inside wall of the bore..
Whether the grooves are cut 0.005" deep, 0.012" deep, or 0.020" deep doesn't change the original bore size of 0.500", you just get deeper grooves.
 

necchi

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So you have a happy land to groove measurement of .500, no matter the random depth of the groove as the barrel in your hands,
Then you take that very barrel that's in your hands, and cut the very same barrel rifling groove deeper,,
And you still have an exact .500 lands to groove measurement?
Your math,, not mine.
 

Nameless Hunter

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So you have a happy land to groove measurement of .500, no matter the random depth of the groove as the barrel in your hands,
Then you take that very barrel that's in your hands, and cut the very same barrel rifling groove deeper,,
And you still have an exact .500 lands to groove measurement?
Your math,, not mine.
The bore is the bore, and is measured land to land, not land to groove.
Whether you have 2 grooves or 10, the number and depth of the grooves don't change the original bore diameter. Altering the width or shape has no effect on the bore diameter as well. If you bore a barrel to the desired projectile diameter and don't cut any grooves then you just have a smooth bore rifle.

Grooves are only cut into the wall of the bore for one purpose, so a tight fitting bullet (shallow grooves) or a patched ball (deep grooves) has something to grip and impart spin. That is why a barrel that was initially made for a tight fitting bullet can be altered for a patched ball. Deepening the grooves adds more groove depth for the patch of a patched ball to "fill in" and follow the twist. The original bore diameter has not been altered by deepening the grooves. Depending on the width of the original grooves (and lands) you could even cut more grooves and still not change the original bore diameter.
 

Danny Ross

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Yeah I know my topic. The bore diameter is measured across the lands. The way the picture is drawn is incorrect. It shows the blue line cutting the land and the opposing grove at the half mark for each, that is were the error is. If you rotate the blue diameter line counter clock wise or clock wise to were the blue line touches the "corners" of the opposing lands on each side of the bore, that will be the true measurement of 0.5000 for the bore diameter in the example shown, from corner to corner. The lands are the constant for the bore diameter from land to land across the bore. The grooves' depth are the variable which doesn't change the bore size. If you cut the lands THAT would change the bore diameter. The deeper grooves allow for more bite into the patch/more patch filling the groove (the patch holds the ball) as it travels down the barrel. The shallower grooves can allow for the patch to slip over them which can cause some inaccuracy depending upon there depth and how much slippage occurs. Rate of twist can also influence how much slippage may occur with the shallower grooves. The faster the twist, with the shallower groove, the more potential of the patch slipping over them. So back to my question having said all of this. When I was saying having the rifling cut deeper I was referring to the grooves, the rate of twist will stay the same. I have had one yes from Ohio Ramrod that it did improve the accuracy.for him. DANNY
 

Danny Ross

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Nameless you type faster than I do. We both said pretty much the same thing. DANNY
 

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