Historically accurate reproduction Brown Bess

okay, so before we get started. I want to buy a historically accurate reproduction Brown Bess for a wall hanger but will probably eventually end up shooting it.

I have been reading for days about Indian repros and there's a lot of arguments for and against but the general idea I got was:

-your running a risk
-stay away from military heritage, they arn't accurate and poorly made
- loyalist arms are the best of the Indians and are pretty damn close but might need a little work (which I don't mind doing)
-pedersoli are hands down the best, but not true to the original

so considering they both don't have the hole drilled I can legally own them as a non-firing replica for now (i'm from Queensland, Australia)

Now i've narrowed it down to two of the newest Bess' offered by both companies

http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/shortland2ndmodel.htm

this they claimed was modeled on an original and is as close as they come (even the correct weight)
this sounds like a good idea to me, but were there any performance differences between the 2nd and 3rd model?

the other:
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket18.htm

the only reason I put this up here is because I really like the New Light Infantry Land Pattern, to me it's the most advanced brown bess, and i am rather interested in the light infantry companies of the day (been reading the Sharpe series too much) and i'm hoping this company got better

Does anyone have experience with any of these two particular muskets and can help me out as far as historical accuracy, quality and shooting ability go?

Thanks for the help, sorry if I opened the can of worms again haha

I do have experience with both -actually all three. I own a Military Heritage/Discriminating General 2nd (Short Land) Pattern musket. There were a few good things about it and after a lot of work and heartache, I really like it.

HOWEVER, the road to getting there was long... I had a number of issues.

The stock was too thick and had a strange orange color stain/finish with a variety of odd green and reddish undertones running through it. Had to remove a lot of wood to get to a correct shape and completely sand to remove the orangutang look.
It was poorly wrapped when shipped so that the cock was bent and I had trouble with the lock due to that damage. They failed to support me adequately with that situation.
The frizzen quit sparking pretty quickly which was not a big deal since we re-hardened it and had no further trouble with that problem.
The mainspring broke and they say YOYO (You're On Your Own)for finding a replacement. Had to beg a friend to help me forge a new one. (Having no skill with springs, he just did it for me and I made a bunch of leather items for our unit to repay my debt, so everyone won on that deal.)


On the other hand, the 2nd North Carolina infantry unit uses Loyalist Arms 1st Model (Long Land pattern) and recommends them. If I were to buy another Bess, that is who I would consider first.

I would also consider Veteran Arms for 3rd Model Bess. (Although their vent is generally drilled, they can send one undrilled if you request.)

I would avoid the Pedersoli. They are strongly made, but never look right. I carried one in the 2nd South Carolina Rgt and was glad to have something to start with, but was happier with something more correct (once I rebuilt the Mil-Her Bess)

Note:
Always buy the bayonet when you buy the musket as it is a pain to get them to work together otherwise. They will all need a bit of filing, but the work involved varies greatly. Just sharing a past experience.

Good luck with your musket plans!

YMHS,
CrackStock

so i'm leaning more towards the loyalist arms muskets then...

So is their 2nd model the best the company offers out of their brown bess line?

Try these two also. Both based in the US so none of the postage or import problems as with the Canadian firms. Both have solid reputations. Middlsex has been around the longest. BTW, most of these folks get their guns from the same town in northern India. The difference is how much finishing and tuning is done on this side of the pond.

Middlesex Village Traders Link

Veteran Arms Link

thanks ill have a look at them but i'm Australian so ill have to deal with the import hoops anyway

out of all the brown bess' from the different companies who offers a model closet to the original?

so far the loyalist arms 2nd model claims to be the most authentic, any brown bess buffs out there know which is the truest to the original?

I usually defend the Indian guns BUT you said you want a "Historically accurate reproduction Brown Bess" and this you will NOT GET. with one of them. They are not anywhere near an accurate reproduction when it comes to being historically correct. They are big bulky and way too shiny! but depending on the importer you buy from, you can get a dependable, inexpensive entry level musket. I have had two, the first one was stolen, and it function very well, I replaced it with another one that does the job just as well as the first one did. I am pleased with it for what it is and what I paid for it.

have you had a look at this particular model?
http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/shortland2ndmodel.htm

they claim it was copied from one of the companies original 2nd model brown bess' they own

any truth to their claims? (albeit shiny)

or should I just settle with any of the brown bess reproductions they offer and put a little work in it? (id rather the 3rd model but if the 2nd is a better repro id go with that)

The best factory made Bess copy was Mirouko, the Navy Arms and Dixie Bess. The Japanese copied down to the bent trigger bow from the original they were sent.

Well since they are no longer made the point is moot. :grin: I have heard the story that the Japanese made an exact copy of the musket they were shipped..., one version of the story says it was an original Short-Land Pattern, one version of the story says it was an "antiqued" Pedersoli. Since my Miroku Bess barrel literally will drop into a Pedersoli Short-Land Pattern Bess stock..., and fits like a glove, I'm wondering that the second version isn't true. :hmm:

I usually defend the Indian guns BUT you said you want a "Historically accurate reproduction Brown Bess" and this you will NOT GET.

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I have to ask for a qualifying question here. "Historically Accurate" is not a specific enough term (imho).

I have compared the hardware used on the Loyalist Arms 1728-First Variation, Long-Land Pattern, King's Musket (Bess), and it matches the hardware on the same model musket found in images in the book, A Soldier Like Way, the Material Culture of the British Infantry 1751-1768 by R. R. Gayle.

Where the gun is lacking is the wood is Indian, and the wood to metal fit can vary from musket to musket. As for "too shiny" I agree though it would be better said "I dislike the level of metal polish", and since none of us has ever seen a 1728 roll out of the Tower of London as new..., we can't really say how shiny a brand new musket actually was. It is an easy fix in any case.

The proper wood would be English walnut, which btw is not found on the Pedersoli short-land either. The Pedersoli wood-to-metal fit is much more precise. All of the Bess muskets with the exception of those made from Rifle Shoppe parts, are not "historically accurate" without the walnut stock. The Pedersoli short-land pattern is a close copy of a proper short-land musket, but unfortunately that pattern even if you used an original is correct for less than half of the British units that fought in the AWI, and incorrect for Pontiac's Rebellion, the F&I, and the Jacobite Rebellion. There are so many out there because for a flintlock musket, for decades, Pedersoli was the only game in town.

The Indian wood can be worked to make it less offensive to the human eye, by using a wood filler and walnut color dye. The Pedersoli stocks most folks are content to accept as is, for restocking with a walnut stock such as that from Track of The Wolf run $299 before shipping. :shocked2:

Pedersoli as a company is not without faults, both in their short-land pattern Bess as well as other flintlocks. I have had to repair Pedersoli locks and frizzens, and last week had to repair a Pedersoli trade-gun stock which had improperly mounted ramrod thimbles. (It should never have left the factory - imho) I have performed fewer repairs on Pedersoli guns than on Indian muskets. Parts are available for both. Parts for the Loyalist Arms muskets often must be fitted, which IS authentic, but a pain in the arse..., luckily they don't break very often. :grin:

I have been very happy will all of my Loyalist Arms products, and have found MVTC muskets also work well. In fact I am currently ordering two more muskets from LA. I can't give you information on Veteran Arms or MH guns due to lack of experience.

LD

okay so, apart from the stock and the shiny which model of indian bess has the correct hardware?

so curves in the right places, correct period markings, locks designed true to the original, no "clunky" overweight wood as they say

now i understand none of them are perfect, but which one is the closest?

I'm leaning towards the loyalist 2nd model bess, because they claim it was reproduced from an original 2nd model the company owns but i'm open to suggestions as i kinda want a 3rd model as it was the most common during the napoleonic era

The Pedersoli stocks most folks are content to accept as is, for restocking with a walnut stock such as that from Track of The Wolf run $299 before shipping.

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My Navy Arms/Pedersoli, 1976 version, is walnut. To me, comparing with some originals and many pictures it looks historically correct. Although, I'm not sure which model it is supposed to represent. (I knew but forgot)
Tell me, what do you think is wrong with this repro?

I forgot to mention in my reply to your other post that the India pattern Bess I bought second hand was from Loyalist Arms. My friend, who builds BBs as a side line, also re-works India made muskets for re-enactors. He said the Loyalist Arms BBs are the closest dimensionally to originals. I was skeptical when he assured me that an original bayonet would fit my India Pattern barrel, but he was right, although the stud/sight had to be slimmed and moved back a little. The stock wood and metal finish issues have already been mentioned.

I recommend the book The Brown Bess by Erik Goldstein and Stuart Mowbray as a good reference for comparing repro BBs to originals.

Loyalist Dave said:

Well since they are no longer made the point is moot. :grin: I have heard the story that the Japanese made an exact copy of the musket they were shipped..., one version of the story says it was an original Short-Land Pattern, one version of the story says it was an "antiqued" Pedersoli. Since my Miroku Bess barrel literally will drop into a Pedersoli Short-Land Pattern Bess stock..., and fits like a glove, I'm wondering that the second version isn't true. :hmm:

................................
LD

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Dave, you are right, the second version is true. Let me say that the current Pedersoli Bess with the "Grice, 1762" marked lock was developed by Navy Arms in 1973 or 1974 in anticipation of the Bicentennial of the American Revolution. As with all of Navy's products, it was not an exacting copy of any original musket, there was a lot of concern by collectors at the time that the reproductions would be "antiqued" and sold as originals and that would decrease the value of the originals on the antique market so the variants were put in to make this very difficult. When Navy gave up the manufacture of guns and began the long, slow fade from the market, Pedersoli continued their manufacture for sale to the world wide market - if anything, the current Bess being made in Italy today is better than Val Forget's Navy Arms product but everything still looks the same.

Getting back to the Japanese "Tower" locked version, the European makers were beginning to price themselves out of the market in the mid-1970s and many arms companies began looking for new makers. Browning switched from Belgium to Japan and the black powder gun sellers looked hard at Japanese makers - thus we have the excellent quality "Tower" Brown Bess and the best reproduction M1861 Rifle Musket, both made by Miroku. Unfortunately, the Italians got the message and began reducing their costs to tempt the buyers back. Add to that, the Japanese government was not very friendly to the large scale manufacture of firearms in their country and they began adding costs to the production of firearms by heavy taxes on the makers which, of course, had to be passed on to their customers. Add to that the fact that many foolish American customers could not get it into their heads that anything "Made in Japan" could be of high quality, something we learned the hard way through the '80s and '90s. Browning went back to Belgium and Navy went back to Italy.

A few have commented in the replies here, and I've read in other Bess related posts that the Pedersoli 2nd model is not an accurate representation, but I've not read much in the way of specifics about why, other than Grice vs. Tower on the lock. Does anyone have pictures of both an original and a Pedersoli that they can post together to illustrate the differences? I have a Pedersoli Bess but don't have any reference books on the Brown Bess and it's variations, so I would welcome the opportunity to see and read about the specific differences, especially relative to stock architecture.

this seems to be the best reference, heard it mentioned a few times before

The Brown Bess; An Identification Guide and Illustrated Study of Britain's Most Famous Musket
Erik Goldstein; Paperback; $39.99
http://www.amazon.com/Identificati...strated+Study+of+Britain's+Most+Famous+Musket

ill be going through it extensively before I purchase anything

has anyone had any dealings with this company?
http://flintlockrepair.com/brownbessEIP.html

to my untrained eye they look pretty damn good, even browned the barrel on the EIP

the japanese matchlock looks amazing too

These are Indian made guns also.

The problem with the 2nd Bess, or more properly the Short-Land Pattern, is that it was standard issue from 1793-1797, with a few units having them from 1775 on, it was phased in quite slowly. Part of the problem back-in-the-day was the huge numbers of Long-Land pattern guns that could have touch holes lined and barrels shortened. So..., even a custom made version of the Short-Land pattern made with Rifle Shoppe parts is not correct for most British units in the AWI, and is incorrect for most if not all British infantry in the Napoleonic conflict.

If you want Napoleonic through War of 1812, and into the American Civil War, you are looking at the 3rd Model, and some of them were converted to percussion in the States.

As for the 2nd Model either Pedersoli or out of production Japanese...,

They simply do not "match" any of the existing muskets of the period, and my source is
"Making Your Reproduction Short Land Service Musket More Authentic" by Hardy Menagh, (Brigade Dispatch, Vol. XXIX, No. 4, Winter 1999):

The "Grice" lock is incorrect, it should say "Tower" or "Dublin Castle".
The brass plate in the wrist called the "escutcheon" is from a 1768 pattern musket,
It's missing a screw in the butt plate finial,
The butt plate resembles the 1760 Light Infantry Carbine finial but is still too long,
In some of the recent editions the jaw screw is from a 1777 lock.
The stocks are too thick, and the notch in the stock comb is improperly shaped, (Although better than Indian)
The trigger guard requires modifying, and the Jap is missing a screw in its trigger guard and a different bend in the guard itself,
The trigger itself is incorrect,

That pretty well sums it up. Again if you are going for Napoleonic you are looking at a 3rd Model, so Loyalist Arms or MVTC.

LD

Loyalist Dave,

Thanks for the informative breakdown of the features on the Pedersoli that don't match with originals.

dave can you do a breakdown of the loyalist 3rd model bess features that don't match with originals?

the photos on the site aren't very good to go off

I really want a light infantry musket, so ill be browning the barrel, but that's another story haha