Welded barrel seams

I would guess that while this was being discussed a hundred or more of those guns were fired with blank and live rounds and no one was blown up.

Maybe not a good compression, but look at a S&W .44 mag and then a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. The Ruger is thicker and heaver and "stronger" But the S&W, being "less Strong" is not more prone to blowing up.

The Indian guns with the DOM BBLs are NOT a lot of things (well fit , etc...) but they are not going to blow up just by looking at them, like some infer. They get proofed....proofing "Proves" the safety of the thing, so because it is a KIA and not a Cadillac, does not mean it will not do what it was designed to do.

P :surrender:

We need open discussions about such stuff as this. So--- Yes thousands of straight seamed welded barrels have been made and used successfully for hundreds of years. Almost all of them were proofed and the ones that blew up were undoubtedly done over.
In the past the Damascus barrels were made because the spiral seam was superior to the longitude seam.
The common safety factor is the proofing of them. With very few exceptions they were proofed and there was more or less a uniform formula for proofing.
The other question we need to ask ourselves is what type is the safest. Do we choose safe or extremely safe. Therein lies the matter of personal choice. I would rather be extra safe for another $100.00
Always try and remember this. There is a reason barrels and barrel steel has constantly been improved over the centuries. If the barrels of 1790 were perfect the progress would have stopped there. BUT-- It continued on through the black powder era until the invention of smokeless powder and then continued. Why did the keep looking for something better?? Because the older ones lacked something. They needed something better. first- straight welded seams on a wrought iron tube, then spiral seams on a wrought iron tube' Then Damascus' then bored from a bar--mild steel-4140. Can anybody say we have not progressed?? I think not.
PS-- If a tube has no touch hole has it been proofed? Dixie catalog has complete proof procedures. I suggest you use them, just for the sake of the guy standing next to you and your wife and kids.
The debate is about what is correct not about who is correct.

BillinOregon said:

I am sorry if feelings were hurt in this thread. I will not start any more threads having to do with welded single-seam barrels on this site.

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Didn`t hurt my feelings Bill, the more knowledge spread around the better. :thumbsup:

Well, what prompted all this was not undrilled movie prop guns, but guns sold with vents drilled and intended for shooting, hunting and re-enacting.
Here are quotes from two of the sellers' sites:

From MVTC:

"Can these be fired with shot?
A: Yes. Many of our customers hunt with these. Others target shoot. Others just shoot blanks in reenactments. The barrels are made of D.O.M. steel just like the "big names". The breechplugs are threaded and tight."

"Are the barrels proofed?
A: No. Here in the US, there are no proof houses. I checked with SAAMI as to their reccomendations about proofing. ("Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute", the organization who sets standards for such things)
Here was the response:

"SAAMI is currently working on setting standards for muzzleloading guns. There is no proof standard at this time... Cartridge guns are proofed at 130% to 140% of service load pressures. Where and how proofing of muzzleloaders will be done is not yet set."

What does this mean? It means that here in America, there are no standards to proof barrels to, nor proof houses to do the testing. In countries where there are proof laws and proof houses (like the UK and Germany), these routinely pass proof testing.

If you really, really want a muzzleloader to be proof tested, we can perform that task for a fee of $50. The gun barrel will be measured, test fired with double the service load (far in excess of Italian standards that are only 130% of service load) and measured again. The barrel will be marked with our stamp and you will get a copy of the test report. We keep a copy of the test report on file here. "

From Veteran Arms:

"Veteran Arms, LLC uses the “traditional” method of proofing which involves visual and mechanical inspection of each piece, the remote firing of the weapon with a charge of 160% of the recommended maximum load, cleaning, and final inspection."
"This February, Veteran Arms, LLC subjected one of its off-the-shelf musket barrels to an "Extreme Integrity Test." The barrel (.69 cal.) was removed from the stock, inspected as usual, and then fired with our regular 160% proofing charge (130 grains of BP + 1 oz of shot). No problem. In an attempt to achieve structural failure, the powder charge was subsequently increased in increments. We worked our way through live loads backed by 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, and 700 grains of powder. No problem. We finally got impatient and decided to load the barrel with 10 times the maximum recommended powder charge plus 2.5 times the shot. There was so much powder and shot in the barrel that the ramrod stuck out approximately a foot! Upon firing, the noise was extremely loud. The result: no bulges, no cracks, nothing. The barrel was completely unharmed. Of course, this information is not intended to encourage anyone to exceed the recommended load in their musket. It is intended only to illustrate what our barrels may be capable of withstanding and to dispel some myths which have circulated on the internet regarding the safety of Indian made products. "


Back to Bill in Oregon here:
Obviously, these statements are being made by importers/retailers who want to sell their wares to those of us interested in historic arms that meet a certain budget point, so the words must be taken with a grain of salt. Still, these folks seem comfortable with the quality of their guns.

I`m no expert in this but have been tempted to make a ML using tubing bought at a steel supplier so all and any info is appreciated.
One thing i could never understand when they talk about testing barrels or boilers is they use pressures at least twice what they would be used at. One would think that would stress the metal in of itself.

Pitchy: I absolutely would start with a good, drilled name barrel in a build I was doing myself, lousy craftsman that I am. I agree that whatever else it is, a DOM barrel is in far, far distant second to a drilled barrel.

BillinOregon said:

Pitchy: I absolutely would start with a good, drilled name barrel in a build I was doing myself, lousy craftsman that I am. I agree that whatever else it is, a DOM barrel is in far, far distant second to a drilled barrel.

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Yepper, and because of knowledgeable input from you and others that is what i`ll do. :hatsoff:
I found a picture of a matchlock with a very long barrel with an axe blade under the muzzle end, one of those half moon shaped blades that i`d like to build some day.
I`ll have to convert a shotgun barrel or buy a rifled one.
Thanks for the reply to my unknowledeable questions. :redface:

George said:

I don't understand your reasoning that says the longitudinal seam gets three times the pressure.

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Think of it like a "candy cane stripe" spiraling up and around the shaft of the cane. Compare that to a pencil 3" long. If the pencil had a seam along it's shaft, that seam would be 3" long. Now, dependent of course on the chord of the helix (spiral, i.e., how 'tight' or 'loose') what he meant was that in 3" of candy cane length, that spiral might be 9" long, as the spiral wraps around and around and up the shaft.

Thus the effective length of the 'joint' is longer when done as a helix versus as a straight shot. Can you visualize it said that way ... ?

The length of the seam does not add to the stress put upon it in this case. It is the direction of the force or pressure as apposed to the direction of the seam that matters. With a longitudal seam the maximum pressure is exerted on the seam in a direction that tries to force it opened. With a spiral seam very little pressure is exerted against the seam in the direction that tries to force it opened. longitudel pressure in a barrel is minimum. Don't think PSI. Think total pressure exerted longitudally as apposed to laterally.

It would seem to me that a piece of steel held together with, say 25 feet of weld would be stronger than one with only 4 feet of weld.

Another thought. If we use a chonagraph & increase powder there is a point where the velocity will decrease. Is it safe to assume that the pressure will also decrease? If this would be true, the heavy proof loads would not realy prove anything.

I do agree with you Jerry that there's a reason that time & the search for improvement has left behind the forged & damascus type of barrels. The quality of the actual bore is superior with a deep hole drilled & reamed tube. For me this game is about shooting groups, one hole groups. If we were to look at the winners at a national level my gut feeling is that mostly we would find drilled barrels. Maybe in a smooth bore gun it wouldn't be that much of an issue, don't know.

We're fortunate right now as there's a bunch of barrel makers out there. I remember when it wasn't that way.

Although I don't own a chronograph I have never seen anyone give any evidence that there ever is a point where increasing the amount of black powder decreases the velocity of a ball or bullet.

There is much evidence that as powder loads are increased the gains in velocity are not as large but there is always some gains.

For instance with a 32 inch long .50 caliber 1:60 twist barrel increasing a GOEX 3Fg powder load from 60 to 70 grains increased the velocity 84 feet per second but increasing the powder load from 100 grains to 110 grains increased the velocity only 48 feet per second. There was an increase though. (Lymans Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual, 2nd Ed.)

If you go to the reloading books you will find that pressure and velocity are not directly proportionate. That is kind of a puzzle to me also but it is true. It is possible for the pressure to be at a dangerous level but the velocity to be quite a bit lower than some of the lower pressure loads.
An extreme analogy would be a stuck bullet in the bore that will not move at all but what is the pressure??
Also it is true if using fffg powder as apposed to ffg powder. sometimes the pressure is a lot higher with fffg but the velocity changes very little if any. Check it out. Other factors may contribute to or detract from the differences.

Some great thoughts about barrels being brought up here. The Damascus barrels of old were usually made from wires of steel, wrought iron and iron. The wires twisted and welded around a mandrel in a spiral using a forge welding proses. This gives the great looking patterns seen. There is no comparison to the welding proses used in DOM tube. Not all DOM tube is welded, DOM stands for drown over mandrel. Not all drilled barrels are safe, I have seen flaws in drilled barrels.
When fluid steel barrels first came out people didn't think they were safe so some were etched with acid to give them a Damascus look. All this even tho a one piece steel barrel with no weld was stronger.
I have seen more than a few barrels with splits and or bulges, never caused by a bad barrel but always from the ball not seated properly or a bore obstruction. Even snow can cause a bulge in a barrel.