Can Fantasy Become a Reality?

Okay. I took a deep breath, and I am getting my feet wet on this forum. I have been looking at a few rifles to buy, but haven't made up my mind as to which rifle to get. I am approaching this (hopefully) with a rational mind, and getting all of my ducks in a row. Online research has been scarce, if not contradictory. So I've taken what info I have found with a grain of salt.

I am not a historical re-enactor, but I will be using my future rifle for hunting (maybe, but I want that as an option) and lots of recreational shooting.

The contenders I've been looking at are the Traditions Hawken Woodsman .50 cal Flintlock, and the T/C Hawken .50 cal. (If anyone can recommend another, I'm open for suggestions). To start out with, I'm working with a rifle budget of $600. And $400 for whatever else is necessary.

I'm still unsure about the Cap Lock vs Flintlock, (if it helps any, I live in Montana) and I'm also unsure between the choice of a .50 & .54 cal rifle. (If there is even a significant difference "advantage or dis-advantage" between the two).

Where the Fantasy part comes in is... I want to eventually cast my own Round Ball Projectiles, make my own patches and black powder. Where the flint and caps come in is still a mystery to me in self-manufacturing. (If that is even possible). So far I'm seeing... no. But I'm sure someone on the forum can straighten me out on this issue.

Besides learning the muzzleloader maintenance, I want to eventually be as self-sufficient in my firearm, as I am in my life. (My wife and I have an off-grid homestead way back in the mountains which we will be permanently living in soon. So self-suffency is important. (As much as humanly possible)

My other stumbling block is... what other items do I "really" need to purchase? I want to go with the basic necessities. i.e. Muzzleloading Tools, Powder Measures, necessary accessory kits and must-have replacement parts. (for whichever model I end up purchasing)

If anyone would like to add their two cents, or recommend a good book to read, I'd sincerely appreciate your experience and expertise.

Thanks for reading. I am totally new to muzzleloading, and I hope I didn't sound like a blithering idiot?

Hello and welcome. You will get alot of help on this forum. I shoot a 50cal flinter. I find it does all I need for recreation and hunting. I think either one will be good. Watch out you are gonna get addicted quick with the flinters. I did. Sounds like you and your wife gonna have a great place. Good luck.

Besides learning the muzzleloader maintenance, I want to eventually be as self-sufficient in my firearm, as I am in my life. (My wife and I have an off-grid homestead way back in the mountains which we will be permanently living in soon. So self-suffency is important. (As much as humanly possible)

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Don't want to discourage you but lots of folks had this dream, particularly back in the '70s. Living in the places that I've lived, I would tell you that complete self sufficiency is probably something that you'll never achieve...

Where the Fantasy part comes in is... I want to eventually cast my own Round Ball Projectiles, make my own patches and black powder. Where the flint and caps come in is still a mystery to me in self-manufacturing. (If that is even possible). So far I'm seeing... no. But I'm sure someone on the forum can straighten me out on this issue.

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Making you own ball, patch and powder is reletively easy and folks here will be plenty willing to give you "how to" advise on the first two (ball & patch). It is forbidden on this forum to discuss making black powder.

The contenders I've been looking at are the Traditions Hawken Woodsman .50 cal Flintlock, and the T/C Hawken .50 cal. (If anyone can recommend another, I'm open for suggestions). To start out with, I'm working with a rifle budget of $600. And $400 for whatever else is necessary.

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While the T/C isn't a bad choice, I'd stay away from Traditions guns and there are far better guns available out there in your price range.

Lastly, since you are admittedly are ignorant about what you are really wanting to accomplish and have done scarce online research, I'd recommend going slow, learning all you can and talking and shooting with experienced folks at every opportunity.

Good luck and may God bless.

first, welcome! self-sufficient? give up that caplock thought,caps nipples..hard to make..gun.. either a thompson or a lyman great plains be a good choice..a 50 uses less lead...specially if yer jus target shootin,,an I think a 50 is great fer huntin too..if you choose too.I'd get/make a good tow worm an use tow fer cleanin,,less rags...an works excellent too..powder measure,ball puller,cleanin jag for runnin a oil patch (in case)..and a flask/powder horn, ball mold,ball starter..that'll get ya started...(probably fergot somthin but..) and umm makin yer BP,,not discussed on MLF ...) flints??? easy to buy..tough to make...but can be.. :thumbsup:

Some of my thoughts:

BigSkyGuy said:

Okay. I took a deep breath, and I am getting my feet wet on this forum. I have been looking at a few rifles to buy, but haven't made up my mind as to which rifle to get. I am approaching this (hopefully) with a rational mind, and getting all of my ducks in a row. Online research has been scarce, if not contradictory. So I've taken what info I have found with a grain of salt.

I am not a historical re-enactor, but I will be using my future rifle for hunting (maybe, but I want that as an option) and lots of recreational shooting.

The contenders I've been looking at are the Traditions Hawken Woodsman .50 cal Flintlock, and the T/C Hawken .50 cal. (If anyone can recommend another, I'm open for suggestions). To start out with, I'm working with a rifle budget of $600. And $400 for whatever else is necessary.
With that kind of budget don't forget to consider the Lyman Great Plains Rifle.
It is a good gun and the barrel is bored for the use of round balls patched with cotton patches.

I'm still unsure about the Cap Lock vs Flintlock, (if it helps any, I live in Montana) and I'm also unsure between the choice of a .50 & .54 cal rifle. (If there is even a significant difference "advantage or dis-advantage" between the two).
In my opinion a beginner should probably use the Percussion system even though it means you have to buy the caps. They come in 100 cap tins.
Although the Flintlock users often talk about the ability to just walk out and pick up a rock to use for the flint it isn't that easy. Few rock types will work well and they will need knapping to shape them. If you don't buy your flints you will have to make them.
If you buy your powder find out if real black powder is available in your area. Some areas don't have it and only real black powder will work well in a Flintlock. If something like Pyrodex or 777 is available it will work fine in a Percussion gun but not in a flintlock.

Where the Fantasy part comes in is... I want to eventually cast my own Round Ball Projectiles, make my own patches and black powder. Where the flint and caps come in is still a mystery to me in self-manufacturing. (If that is even possible). So far I'm seeing... no. But I'm sure someone on the forum can straighten me out on this issue.
Well, first off we cannot discuss making black powder on the forum except to say it isn't easy, its dangerous and the powder companies spent years figuring out how to make good powder.
As for casting your own roundballs that's easy after you buy some lead and a inexpensive bullet die like a LEE for around $25.

...

My other stumbling block is... what other items do I "really" need to purchase? I want to go with the basic necessities. i.e. Muzzleloading Tools, Powder Measures, necessary accessory kits and must-have replacement parts. (for whichever model I end up purchasing)
You will need a cleaning rod (preferably metal), a brass cleaning jag of the right caliber, a nipple wrench (if you buy Percussion), a Short Starter to start the patched ball (or a round wooden ball with a short 3/8 diameter dowel sticking out the side) Some sort of patch lube, some pure cotton patches (like Walmarts "Pillow Ticking" red/white or blue/white stripes.
That's about it for the basic things needed.

...
Thanks for reading. I am totally new to muzzleloading, and I hope I didn't sound like a blithering idiot?
No, you didn't sound at all like an idiot.
Stick around here and read as many posts as you can. You will find that there is a great wealth of information of all kinds here.
Welcome to the forum by the way.

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I don't think you're dreaming. More like plotting a course.

I'm not as big a fan of Traditions as I am of TC and Lyman. And there's lots of good used ones out there within your budget. You could also consider building new with a Lyman kit. Add a short starter, capper (if you choose cap over flint), something to hold your powder, a cleaning jag, patches, powder and you've got everything you need for under $600. The shooting bag and powder horn can come later.

As for the rest of it, here's where I'm at. I'm a guy with average skills, no shop tools, and more time than sense. Didn't do it all at once, but I'm as self-sufficient as a guy can get without making his own powder.

This year I shot my deer with a rifle (Lyman kit), cast balls, patch lube, shooting bag, short starter, knife, knife sheath, loading block, powder horn, powder measure and deer call I made myself. Felt pretty good.

I can and will build more, most notably the clothing, all in the spirit of having done it myself. It's just a matter of adding a little more homemade each year.

And that's kinda the key. Start somewhere and add a little at a time. My first bit of homemade was a loading block. Took about 10 minutes. No, I take that back. I been making my own deer calls for close to 40 years.

I'd go with a flintlock personally, I sent you a PM BTW.
I live off grid in a cabin in the mountains myself and have for many years.

CVA stopped production of side lock guns about 14 yrs ago. Parts are easy to find. However, if you can find a good used Big Bore Mountain Rifle (58 cal.) IMO it was the absolute best production gun ever made. Cut round ball rifling suitable for fine target shooting.

keep in mind that the bigger the ball the more energy it retains down range. It is a fact that can't really be compensated for with higher powder charges.

assuming a 90 grain powder charge, a 45 cal ball retains only about 45% of its muzzle energy at 100 yds. A 50 caliber retains about 50%. A 58 caliber ball retains about 58%. likewise a 75 cal musket ball retains roughly 75% at 100 yds. While the smaller calibers may start out faster and with higher muzzle energy, they lose that energy faster as they plow through the air going down range. A 54 or 58 is about the optimum for gun weight, and power down range. Add to that factor, that a larger ball makes a larger hole, resulting in mre shock and blood loss. There is no doubt that their is a trajectory factor. heavier ball moving slower arcs more. the 54 is the caliber many hunters are choosing for PRB hunting.

You can consider the Thompson Hawken or the Lyman Great Plains, both are good rifles. The Thompson is U.S made and has a great warranty. I think I would stick with the percussion type. You can buy the caps in cartons containg several 100 cap tins. A 5000 cap purchase might not be cheap, but it will last you a very long time depending on your shooting. Whatever one you choose, be sure to enjoy it. :thumbsup:

You'll want to listen to BrownBear and Zonie...Couple of smart cookies there! I would also say get the T/C or Lyman with preferance on the Lyman, I think it shoulers better but both are good shooters. I would also concur that precussion is MUCH easier and a better start. For the record you WILL own several as times goes on its an addictive desease with no known cure :wink: There will be ample opportunity to get a flint.
Get into casting balls RIGHT AWAY....it is SOOOO much cheaper you will never regret it and it is very easy too....
Now here is my own two cents...Get a .54. The .50 is "ok" but in Montana your deer are big-ish and your Elk are bigger. You can always load down (use less powder) but .54 just does it all.
You will needs LOTS of little stuff...Dont rush in to buy LOTS of anything untill you are sure its what you want. (size of balls, types of powder, etc) and READ, READ, READ this forum...It has a TON of GREAT Info for the taking!!!!
Lastly if you are handy with wood working at all you might look at a Lyman great plains rifle kit...Putting that together was the MOST fun ive had in along time!

Fantasy can become reality if you follow your dreams with dedication. For historical accuracy watch the video Gray Owl.Or the case of the man who wanted to live like the old mountain men and went into the mountains with just a flint hawkin, some traps ,powder and lead and what he could carry in a back pack. He not only survived but was doing well until the game authorities arrested him on a dozen different violations. Or from personal experience , when I was a teenager in the 50's I dreamed of using the "new" plastic sandwich bags to make a shot cup out of so I could use my muzzleloading 28 gauge to compete better at trap shoots against the modern twelve gauge shotguns and older shooters.But they closed the trap range (The landowner died) before I had a chance to try it. As the years past I played with the idea and developed a paper shot cartridge. Flash forward fifty years and at the old nothwest two years ago. I used my paper shot cartridges ( and wax paper powder charges ) to win the trap shoot competing against the "younger" shooters, on a rainy day. So if you have a dream follow your dreams!It may take a while and will take work but it can be done.

Montana..............deer, elk, moose, bison, griz.............get a .58 caliber. Bigger's better!

in my opinion i'd go with a lyman great plains rifle over TC.

traditions arent a bad rifle at all to be honest. their flintlocks can be a little iffy with their frizzens but i didnt read that you were looking for a flintlock.

"in my opinion i'd go with a lyman great plains rifle over TC"

I would agree with this, the LGP will give you a good quality gun that can fit into the more PC/HC crowd if the desire arrises.

I shoot a Lyman Great Plains in .54 and I believe in Mont. I 54 would great place to start if you plan to ever hunt with it.

I have a TC Hawken .50 and a Lyman Great Plains Rifle .54. They are both accurate and well-made, but I recommend the GPR and the .54 caliber.

- The .54 has a bit more energy for large game.

- With a little more drop in the stock and some-
what longer barrel, the GPR "holds" better for
offhand shooting.

- GPR is definitely more authentic looking.

Flint or percussion? Valid arguments for both, but I believe the GPR looks right as a percussion since these types of "Plains Rifles" were made in the mid 1840s - 1860s.

NICE idea/fantasy you have there sir.

I believe I would go with some sort of half stocked plains rifle in 54 caliber myself. I'd probaly go with the Lyman great plains rifle, I believe you can change from capper to flint pretty simple with that choice but I don't know that for a fact. If I could get it in 58 I probably would but a 54 ought to do the job. PRB is great but there are projectiles that carry the energy down range better and you could go with a smaller bore and run PRB for shorter range/ smaller animals and use them for longer range/larger animals. Just the same a 50 cal ball will kill anything you need you just might have to get closer.

As for spare parts for the wilderness I believe a lock and a trigger is about all I would get and maybe a second mold. I'd stock up on lead for sure and powder and then I'd recycle the lead that I could as well. Real black wont go bad even when it gets wet. It might cake up and cause a mess BUT if you get a tumbler you could regrind it using some of your lead ball and then sieve it to make the granulation you want, that wont be as strong as what ya had tho as it is pressed I believe. Stock up on some cloth for patches or if you can weave your own...

I would go with flint myself but a new guy would be better off with a capper unless he had someone to show him some of the ropes. AND even the caps can be made if ya know how.

We can't discuss making of powder here, some claim it to be illegal but that isn't the case. You do need a permit or lisence tho I believe, and it might be you only need the permit/lisence for flying higher. (the model rocket guys been doing it legally for years)

As for some books I'll have to get back with you on that one. I chat on a couple other forums and I have a listing of books somewhere...