Wrong side, wrong gun powderhorn accident!

Ridge said:

roundball said:

I've read a couple of articles which claim that those strong brass powder flasks would be like a hand grenade going off as opposed to the old powder flasks that were paper thin metal...no idea if its true...but I got one in a box of stuff from an estate sale and have never used it.

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I know of at least one hornmaker who only uses 3-4 toothpicks to hold the big plug (I hate calling it a buttplug!) with the hopes that if the above ever does happen that it will blow the plug out instead of exploding the horn.

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Yes, I believe that was the idea with the oldtimers. I belive I read about that somewhere where the idea is that the fewer the tacks/pins the better hoping that they will give before the horn becomes a bomb. Same idea on the brass chargers - teeny tiny screws holding the valve section on.

Has he ever popped one to see if his toothpick idea works?

Chilidog said:

Ridge said:

roundball said:

I've read a couple of articles which claim that those strong brass powder flasks would be like a hand grenade going off as opposed to the old powder flasks that were paper thin metal...no idea if its true...but I got one in a box of stuff from an estate sale and have never used it.

Click to expand...

I know of at least one hornmaker who only uses 3-4 toothpicks to hold the big plug (I hate calling it a buttplug!) with the hopes that if the above ever does happen that it will blow the plug out instead of exploding the horn.

Click to expand...

Yes, I believe that was the idea with the oldtimers. I belive I read about that somewhere where the idea is that the fewer the tacks/pins the better hoping that they will give before the horn becomes a bomb. Same idea on the brass chargers - teeny tiny screws holding the valve section on.

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I've never heard that before, and it might be just an 'old wives' (old horners?) tale. In all the photos I have seen of original horns (and with the few originals I have handled) the butt plug was secured with wood pegs, iron nails, brass tacks. I've seen as few as four pegs/nails/tacks securing the plug and as many as two dozen. I don't think that the old masters were concerned with keeping the horn from becoming a grenade, they wanted the plug to be secure.

Also over time the fines from the powder will probably seep down into the any gaps between the plug and horn and make an effective seal...
Scott

Tkendrick said:

It did, however, do a credible imitation of a seriously deranged cruise missile. It left the bench at a moderately slow velocity, bounced off the ground a couple of times, danced around a little, did a 180 and ended up under a car in the parking area behind the line. Total distance of about 25 or 30 yards.

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Tkendrick, I gave some thought on the behavior of that horn you observed going off. It could be the reason it didn't explode was that it was probably a full horn. When the ember ignited the powder in the spout, it started burning inwards with the gases produced by the burning would take the easy route out the spout which now was an effective rocket nozzle. If the horn was only partially filled when the ember ignited the powder, then you would have a nice large chamber for combustion and an explosion. Hmmm, might be a good reason to keep your horn full... :hmm:
Scott

Frankly, if I hadn't seen it I would not have believed it.

I have no problem with the concept of a horn or flask blowing up, in fact, I am a little surprised it doesn't happen more often. Especialy given the sloppy habits I frequently see with new shooters who occasionally show up where I shoot.

Until I saw that horn skitter across the range, I would have considered any one who told me about it to be "truth challenged".

I'm really glad everything worked out in the end Firehand, both for you, and quite selfishly for the rest of us. If the outcome had been worse I can't imagine what kind of press the whole incident would have received. Sure would have been some new regs coming down the pike.

I'm curious if you can recall how much powder was left in the horn at the end of a shoot like that. If it had been as much as a pound of powder at the start of a shoot, what would be the result?

I love the look of bigger horns, but it scares the bejaysus out of me to carry much powder on my body in case something does go wrong, however small the chance.

My hunting horn only holds around 1200 grains when stuffed full, and if I was compeating, I'd still use a small horn and refill it between rounds. I guess if I got self conscious from ribbing about my teeny horn, I'd switch to a bigger horn, but only put enough in it at one time for a particular round of shooting. I'm no longer a range shooter though, and the deer don't seem to care what size horn I carry.

Tom,

Yup, just a couple a weeks ago I unthreaded the charger from my horn and whittled out a plug for from a mesquite branch. On a past thread I mentioned I loaded my squirrel rifle from the 30 grn. spout on it, got a couple of admonishments for it. Anyway the plugs purtier. :grin: Anyways Welcome to the forum, enjoy the company here and heal up quick.

James "Jay" Taylor

Nope. That was the first question that I asked as well.

I'm not sure it works. Heck, he's not sure it works.

Don't see how it could hurt though.

Glad you are recovering and thanks for sharing your tale.

I have witnessed an accident at my old gun club close to 30 years ago.At the time, there were fewer than 20 poeple involved in black powder, and it was hard to find.As I recal, it was thru the army that we could get it, in bulk(25 kilos).
To put you in perspective,I was member #69990.Yes, we had thousands.The club in question is "Tiro Federal Argentino de Buenos Aires".You can google it,It used to be the biggest gun club in the world inside a city.
Back to the story, we used to split the powder in 1/2 kilo plastic containers.
At the loading station, wich was some 5 feet behind the shooting position, it was common to see these containers capped and with the powder messure inside, wich consisted mostly of a 44-40 casing brazed to some sort of handle.
Flinters were so very rare that it could be a few months before you saw one.Primers were almost imposible to find , and if you did, you saved them for competitions.We used caps from toy guns.
One day it happened that someone was shooting a flinter, and one of the sparks found its way to one of these containers that was left open.
Nobody was hurt but at least a couple of clean underware were in tall order.
The powder burned harmlessly in such container with no explosion or fragments going anywere.
The reason for that ,was that they were very thin plastic and close to 5 inches in diameter, so there was no chance of presure build up.
We lerned the lesson, and after that incident pre messure charges were only allowed.
Never the less I still carry IN my bag a brass flask.

Blizzard of 93 said:

I suppose that's possible. I've heard of shooters ramming the PRB down so hard and fast that it ignited the charge due to 'diesel effect' ala fire piston.

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I eliminate that possibility by using only wood rammers. Abuse them that way and they break before the pressure can build fast enough. How fast would you have to ram a charge to build enough pressure to lower the flash point to ambient?

The Bevel Brothers conducted an experiment on the 'fire piston effect' and published the results in Muzzleblasts.

I don't know any rod an jag combination with a patch, or pushing down a PRB that creates a tight enough seal to cause a " fire piston" created fire. First, there is a hole in the back of the barrel leading through the vent, or out a nipple, and that will not allow pressure to be built up fast enough or high enough to allow the powder to ignite. I have experienced dieseling when putting a PRB down on a OP wad, which seals the powder charge from the PRB, but that combination of events is NOT going to start a fire in the chamber by compression. I have a fire piston, and have a good understand about how much pressure it takes in a small space to get the temperature high enough to reach and exceed the flash point temperature of tinder. Black Powder burns at a higher temperature, and the Substitute powders have a much higher flash point than does Black Powder.

Yessir, I am a right-handed shooter but have always carried my horn on the left side EXACTLY for the reason you mentioned regarding the ease and dexterity in pouring the powder from the measure with my right hand. I gotta admit, the danger of a spark finding its way into a right side horn never entered my mind. The only reason I chose the left side was to make it easier to load my gun(s) quickly and accurately with NO messy slippage.

Marc Adamchek said:

Yessir, I am a right-handed shooter but have always carried my horn on the left side EXACTLY for the reason you mentioned regarding the ease and dexterity in pouring the powder from the measure with my right hand. I gotta admit, the danger of a spark finding its way into a right side horn never entered my mind. The only reason I chose the left side was to make it easier to load my gun(s) quickly and accurately with NO messy slippage.

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Odd. I'm right handed, so I carry my horn on the right, so I can pour from the horn with my dominant hand. Dominant hand = more control when pouring. I pour, use a knife, write, etc. with my right hand.

Why would I handicap myself and pour with my "weak" hand? It's a mystery, but if it works for others, so be it. :v

I'm not in favor of any spring or mechanical levers on any powder horn period. Like Paul said, if you don't keep the spring/lever clean there's always a chance of GUNK, weed seeds etc. holding the gate open enough to let a possible spark in the powder horn.

When I use or make a powder horn. I ALWAYS make or leave the horn stopper undrilled with no attachment cord. I feel that if the shooter has to hold the stopper in their fingers or in my way of loading, between my teeth. I automatically realize it and put the stopper in the powder horn..EVERYTIME! If a person or customer wants to drill it. That's their own business!

Those that know me, know that I have made many, many powder horns over many years and still do today and have never drilled a stopper plug to date.

I've heard alot of horror stories over the years about those Damn spring lever spout ends and this adds to the list.

Hope your friend is fine and fully recovers!

Rick Froehlich

many holes said:

I was there. I want to set this straight. T.F. was carrying a powder horn that has a spring loader brass spout. Accidents happen that are just that - ACCIDENTS!

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Sounds like the problem is solved, use a plug to prevent this from happening again.

rabbit03

Here's a hearty thank you from "Firehand" for all the kind words and regards. The hand and arm have healed up pretty nice only to reveal some nerve and muscle issues-evidently I "whiplashed" my neck in a defensive response. So doing a lot of massage and stretching. There was about 3/8lb of powder in the horn when it went. The Colorado Poke and Stroke just came out about my accident and a good 80% of it was wrong - another example of the media getting it wrong. Thanks again everyone.

rubincam said:

-----I see a lot of guys that pour from the can into a measure and don't cap the can---I TELL THEM ABOUT IT TOO-----

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I was corrected that way once at a range. I gave a heartfelt "thank you" to the corrector immediately. Rather have the embarrassment than the consequence.

I'm left-handed, but shoot right-handed. Horn is on the right, bag on the left. My dominant hand can rummage in the pouch, and holds the measure for filling the barrel. Just might try holding the stopper in my teeth now...