What constitutes good groups.

I am an accuracy driven guy, I DESIREtight groups,say 2 inches at 50 yds. I can do that most of the time if I do my part and the gun gods are playing my way with conditions being right. But thats me.
The guy shooting next to me might just be content to hit paper and is thrilled to no end! Thats his expectation! Doesnt make me any better thah him, or him any lesser than me. Its what is acceptable to the individual shooter to obtain his expectations.
experience, age, eye sight, load development, weather conditions, ect....all play a part in this.
And yes, I do miss my share of hits from where I wanted/intended them to go!

I am a 1" @ 50yds kind of guy, if I can work up a load in my 50 cal. flinter that will consistantly plop the balls into a 1" group ( center to center ) then I know that I have the most accurate combination avaliable for my rifle and this breeds confidence in the field. :v

For me it also takes more that one group to prove the accuracy of a given load, and it takes 5 shot groups as well, no flyers.

All of my rifles, off a bench, will put them in an inch or inch and a half at 50 yards. Three inches at 100 yards. The three inches has less to do with what the rifle will do than what my old eyes can discern with open iron sights at that range. I work up loads until I get this performance from each of my rifles.

Some interesting replies. For the past several years I have been semi obsessed about sub MOA. I shoot a bench rimfire and try for 1/4 inch @ fifty yards. I'm happy with anything near 1 MOA on my M1A's at 100-600 yards. When I don't get these results (which is often)I get po'd. I think my Hawken well be much more enjoyable.

I agree GMB, I only hunt Whitetails & haven't had one run off as of yet. I just don't feel the need to shoot 1" groups on paper when one well placed roundball will do the trick :v

By the way that is a nice group :thumbsup:

When you say 8 inches for ten shots are you saying that you can put ten shots within less than a inch of the center hole? Off hand at 50 yards?

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No, no! Gosh, I wish I could do that!!

I'm talking about an eight inch group.

Only target I have handy to show you is this one which was only eight shots at 50 yards. It's just a bit over five inches but I I'd taken two more shots it probably coulda been eight inches. :haha:



This next one is what I meant about confirming my hunting sight in. Shot at 50 yards off the bench with a 6 0:clock hold.

Well thank goodness, I thought I was going to have to really raise the standards on my shooting. Ten shots within an inch of the center hole off hand seemed way out of my league.

But thats a fine group off the bench, i'm trying to get to where you are. Still looking for the best load and it's getting better.

It's well worth your time to start off with or pause to take some time to make sure your barreo condition is optimal.

The bottom target with the three shot group was fired the first day out for that rifle. It was a Deer Creek Rifle Works gun that I had just completed. Upon arrival at the range, I fired a series of bore lapping bullets and then cleaned the barrel up carefully. Next, it was shoot and file the front sight and bump the rear sight til it was where it shot to a desired POI.

Very few new barrels are so well made or factory lapped that they will not benefit from some attention to the bore condition and the crown.

I'm working now with a D'haas barrel that is brand new. Looking down the bore it is clear that it will benefit from some lapping. The crown however is pretty much ideal for a ml gun. The GM barrels and the spanish and Italian barrels are pretty sharp edged and not very well crowned.

Off the bench at 50 yds I will not accept anything bigger than 2 inches for 3 shots. My two TC hawkens with their prefered loads and Great Plains bullets will do a whole lot closer to an inch and some times under an inch. This is with a over powder wad, CCI #11 mag caps and Triple seven 2F.
Their prefered loads are pretty heavy hunting loads, 90 gr in the 50 cal and 120 gr in the 54 cal. I've got some 2F & 3F Goex that I'm trying to work up a load in my Seneca 45 cal, but so far nothing to write home about. Getting a good load with PRB seems to be more work than conicals. I was able to obtain real good conical loads in my first trip to the range with both rifles. In my quest for a PRB loads I have bought way too much stuff. With my current inventory of information and supplies I can shoot PRB's for a very long time.

I'm not sure if I know enough about bore lapping or fire lapping to know if it would help my barrel or not.

Years ago i used pyrodex and cleaned my barrel with T/C no. 13 cleaner. I'd go back after a few weeks and find what looked like gray fuzz growing on the area around the nipple, so i'd clean it again. Every thing in the cabinet gets cleaned at least once a year even if it has not been shot. The rest get cleaned after use. But I have some pitting I can see in the first inch of the muzzle, when I drop a bore light down the barrel it looks pretty good to me, maybe someone more knowledgeable than me would say they can see something.

Maybe in the end i'll get a new barrel for it. Talked to guy at the range a few weeks ago who also had a D'hass barrel and said he really likes it, said he also has a Colerain barrel and likes the D'hass better. I just happened to find the D'hass web site and it looks like the son of the former owner has taken over the business. Do you think the quality is still high now that the son is making the barrels?

If you were going to buy a replacement barrel for a T/C Renegade Hunter would you look at a Rice, Colerain, D'hass or GM barrel?

Not sure yet if a barrel is in the future, this one seems to be getting a little better or i'm getting more consistent with my loads or i'm closer to the right combination.

I shoot only Greenmtnbarrels and own no less than eight rifles with that barrel.
Every one gives me inch and a half five shot groups at 100 yrds.
What I have found is I start by not fire lapping but hand lapping with NECO four part lapping compound.
It's about a three hour process and I guarantee that you will get compition accuaracy with your first five shot string.
Go to NECO.com
If you want to learn how to hand lapp send me a P.T.
:thumbsup:

Went to neco.com and all i could get was tickets to sporting events.

You think lapping a older barrel will help it? Some of my problems are my eyes and finding the right load, but it's getting better.

Years ago i used pyrodex and cleaned my barrel with T/C no. 13 cleaner. I'd go back after a few weeks and find what looked like gray fuzz growing on the area around the nipple, so i'd clean it again.

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Well, as they say on Mythbusters, "there's your problem" :shocked2: I have not found a single ml solvent that works as good as plain old water and that includes cleaning up after pyrodex. Pyrodex has perchlorates in it and if not adequately cleaned, it will corrode as badly or worse than inadequately cleaned bp.

I'm not sure if I know enough about bore lapping or fire lapping to know if it would help my barrel or not.

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You can use the NECO system and lap by hand or you can use a firelap system. Neither will completely salvage your barrel if it is badly pitted, but either will smooth it up a bit.

Any firelapping kit will give you directions on how to use it. I have used the LBT system and the Wheeler system and both were satisfactory.

If you were going to buy a replacement barrel for a T/C Renegade Hunter would you look at a Rice, Colerain, D'hass or GM barrel?

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The only one of the above that makes a drop in is GM. You could fit one of the other's yourself but I assure you, having done it, that it is a major project. Besides, while others will disagree, a properly lapped and crowned GM barrel is probably as good as you are going to get.

Same hole, ragged hole and 1 1/2 inch hole

rabbit03

rabbit03 said:

Same hole, ragged hole and 1 1/2 inch hole

rabbit03

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Show off! :grin:

Hey, Green Mountain Boy is doing it too :blah: :shocked2:

rabbit03 :thumbsup:

my old man used to sit in his deer stand have one of us kids put a 5gallon plastic bucket about 30 yards away and if he could shoot it, he was ready. He shot after we got out of the way!!! :grin: