18th Century Military Accoutrements Leather?

A P.S. to LT and others regarding the Cartouche Box made into a Cartouche Pouch above.

For years, I did AWI reenacting as a Private Soldier in the Major's Coy of the 42nd Royal Highland Infantry, the Black Watch. Most Highland Soldiers in the FIW and AWI were never issued Cartouche Pouches, probably because their Officers considered them too expensive. So to be authentic, we only used Cartouche Boxes, I.E. Belly Boxes. I can tell you from a great deal of experience with them and just like from original documentation, they are prone to twisting and dumping cartridges on the ground and are D@MNED uncomfortable to wear.

Since this is true, one can often find a used repro Belly Box for sale at a very good price. Now if one is doing American Militia, it would be perfectly correct to add a strap (and a pouch body if you want, though it isn't required to be correct) and turn it into a Cartouche Pouch for AWI reenacting and it would also be a LOT more comfortable to wear.

Gus

Maybe it's best to take one pic at a time.

I admit I'm not sure if this is two-piece construction for the body of the pouch or if it was made of one long piece and the sides sewn together, then turned inside out. Either way, I think it is pretty safe to say they used belly leather to make the pouch body. They then used very thick leather for the flap.





Gus

Capt. Jas. said:

Sadly, Eric passed away at the end of last year.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...rZZostxE1l&id=100064750684395&mibextid=Nif5oz

Click to expand...

I did not know that Eric had died. He was a great guy and was happy to share his knowledge.

Timber Rattler said:

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Click to expand...

TR,

So as not to do typing of info you don't need, may I ask some questions?

Do you need info on the various parts of a cowhide?

Do you need info on what part/s of the cowhide to buy?

Do you need info on different types of stitching to make a cartridge pouch?

Gus

Gus, I've got all that info but thanks anyway. I'm using double bends from backs and butts--- 5/6 oz for the pouch body and strap, and 8 oz for flap. I'm keeping the stitching simple--basic saddle stitching with two needles, which has proven to be quick and easy. I can now sew a bag in about 30 minutes.

I've got my first one already done, to a specification from a big guy who needed a big box with a longer, adjustable carriage strap. I also used a Beech block.

Are there vendors who sell cartridge pouch straps separately? (Mine is over 40 rears old and used often. It’s white with one brass buckle. The leather is in very poor shape but serviceable, for now.

Are there vendors who sell cartridge pouch straps separately? (Mine is over 40 rears old and used often. It’s white with one brass buckle. The leather is in very poor shape but serviceable, for now.

Click to expand...

I believe that the short answer is no, since the straps tend to be sewn directly to the pouches, usually underneath the flap ends. HOWEVER, you can make your own by buying a pre-cut 72" vegetable-tanned strap in whatever width you want on Ebay or Amazon for about $20, and then cut and sew yourself. For example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284125502012?hash=item4227331a3c:g:KfYAAOSwI95guwsa
WD-47 Veg Tanned Cow Leather Belt Blank Strip Strap 3/4-5/6-8/9-9/10-11/12-13/15 | eBay

If you want American leather from like Hermann Oak (Home | Hermann Oak Leather Co), you can get it from leather vendors like Tandy (Belts, Strips & Straps) and Weaver (Belt Blanks & Loops) but its more expensive.

A word of caution about the white straps though...these are made using the modern chromium process and contain salts that corrode iron and steel, and cause brass to tarnish more quickly. A British leather vendor I know told me last week that there is only ONE factory/tannery left in the world that makes correct 18th century white buff leather, and it is in the Czech Republic. The chromium-process white straps are also "fuzzy" on the rough side and will shed all over your clothes if you wear it inward. So, it's best to wear the smooth side next to your clothes with rough side out.

Timber Rattler said:

I believe that the short answer is no, since the straps tend to be sewn directly to the pouches, usually underneath the flap ends. HOWEVER, you can make your own by buying a pre-cut 72" vegetable-tanned strap in whatever width you want on Ebay or Amazon for about $20, and then cut and sew yourself. For example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284125502012?hash=item4227331a3c:g:KfYAAOSwI95guwsa
WD-47 Veg Tanned Cow Leather Belt Blank Strip Strap 3/4-5/6-8/9-9/10-11/12-13/15 | eBay

If you want American leather from like Hermann Oak (Home | Hermann Oak Leather Co), you can get it from leather vendors like Tandy (Belts, Strips & Straps) and Weaver (Belt Blanks & Loops) but its more expensive.

A word of caution about the white straps though...these are made using the modern chromium process and contain salts that corrode iron and steel, and cause brass to tarnish more quickly. A British leather vendor I know told me last week that there is only ONE factory/tannery left in the world that makes correct 18th century white buff leather, and it is in the Czech Republic. The chromium-process white straps are also "fuzzy" on the rough side and will shed all over your clothes if you wear it inward. So, it's best to wear the smooth side next to your clothes with rough side out.

Click to expand...

Thanks!

Artificer said:

TR,

So as not to do typing of info you don't need, may I ask some questions?

Do you need info on the various parts of a cowhide?

Do you need info on what part/s of the cowhide to buy?

Do you need info on different types of stitching to make a cartridge pouch?

Gus

Click to expand...

BTW, Gus, I forgot to thank you for sharing all that information in my thread, especially that PowerPoint. It's been EXTREMELY helpful and I appreciate it.

I do have another question about the 19 and 24-hole "standard" (if there is such a thing in RevWar) pouches like this one:



In making the D-shaped leather bag, are the front and back pieces the same size, or is the front piece wider, and just stretched back and sewn to the back piece? Also, is there a pattern available somewhere in the dark corner of the web with dimensions? This is the one (and its earlier 19-hole variant) that I really want to make, but can't figure out how to make the bag pieces properly without wasting my leather.

Timber Rattler said:

BTW, Gus, I forgot to thank you for sharing all that information in my thread, especially that PowerPoint. It's been EXTREMELY helpful and I appreciate it.

I do have another question about the 19 and 24-hole "standard" (if there is such a thing in RevWar) pouches like this one:

In making the D-shaped leather bag, are the front and back pieces the same size, or is the front piece wider, and just stretched back and sewn to the back piece? Also, is there a pattern available somewhere in the dark corner of the web with dimensions? This is the one (and its earlier 19-hole variant) that I really want to make, but can't figure out how to make the bag pieces properly without wasting my leather.

Click to expand...

Like this one?



I just went back through the entire slide show and it seems to me that most, if not all of the pouches made like this for three row block pouches had larger pieces of leather in the front, because the back piece does not come to a more or less equal spot to the front piece where the two parts are stitched together. You aren't going to stretch leather that much on the front with equal front and back pieces. I think this is the difference between a double row pouch and a triple row pouch by looking at the originals.

Now, they may have "wet formed" or "block formed" the front piece by using the actual cartridge block as the form, before the cut the excess leather away from around the block. They left enough excess on the outside that could be stitched to the back and still allow the pouch to be wetted and turned inside out and fit the block.

More coming, but have to run out for a while now.

Gus

Timber Rattler said:

Gus, I've got all that info but thanks anyway. I'm using double bends from backs and butts--- 5/6 oz for the pouch body and strap, and 8 oz for flap. I'm keeping the stitching simple--basic saddle stitching with two needles, which has proven to be quick and easy. I can now sew a bag in about 30 minutes.

I've got my first one already done, to a specification from a big guy who needed a big box with a longer, adjustable carriage strap. I also used a Beech block.

Click to expand...

TR,

For your first cartouche pouch, you did a fine job, indeed.

Saddle stitch the pouch in 30 minutes? WOW, you are faster than I ever was. Good for you.

Though they commonly used pine or to a lesser degree birch for the blocks, I'm impressed you used beech. NICE touch. May I ask what diameter you drilled the holes in the block?

I like the use of two buckles that gives it a sort of FIW flavor, while the bottom of the flap being straight may or may not have been used until closer to the AWI. Having mentioned this, I would not have an historic objection to using it for FIW re-enacting, as it is a militia box and not intended as a reproduction of a military cartouche pouch.

May I ask why you dyed the inside of the pouch flap, if you did dye it?

Do you have pictures from the rear of the cartouche pouch?

Gus

Thank you very much! The guy I made it for called my militia pouch "very high quality." I did a lot of research and took my time with it to make sure I got everything right, or as close to "right" as possible. The holes are 3/4." I thought about going to 7/8", as suggested here (Early Rev War cartridge box) but it would have caused some issues in drilling the wood block, with the size I had, and I did not want to remove more wood than absolutely needed.

I really like the double-buckle carriage too, even though it was a bit more work in measuring and making them, and added about $12 to the cost (for the price of the extra buckle). My guy is very tall and "robust" in size, and was not sure how long he needed his strap to be, so it just seemed like a good idea to give him a longer length but more adjustable at two points since we were communicating long distance by email, and I couldn't measure him in person. Apparently I got it just right for him!

The straight bottom with rounded ends was just easier to cut, and so I emulated some of the ones shown in the Collector's Encyclopedia (pages 66-77), which also gives it a bit of British flavor. But I'm looking to do the rounded bottoms moving forward after I get some better leather cutting knives and tools, with 8/9 oz flap leather curves being somewhat tough to cut cleanly.

Yes, I applied the inside of the pouch flap with a few coats of Vinegaroon. I had originally planned on NOT doing so, but when I was applying it to the front, some of the Vinegaroon leaked underneath the flap edges, making it splotchy and looking dirty underneath. I did not want to send it to my guy like that, since it looked sloppy and unprofessional, so I just coated the back of the flap too, which took about 2 minutes, and it looked better afterward. No regrets!

Here's the rear of the pouch.

Timber Rattler said:

Thank you very much! The guy I made it for called my militia pouch "very high quality." I did a lot of research and took my time with it to make sure I got everything right, or as close to "right" as possible. The holes are 3/4." I thought about going to 7/8", as suggested here (Early Rev War cartridge box) but it would have caused some issues in drilling the wood block, with the size I had, and I did not want to remove more wood than absolutely needed.

Click to expand...

I completely understand, but there are two additional problems when using 3/4" holes. I've run into problems with both and that's how I know.

The first problem is trying to use holes that size with cartridges loaded with powder and ball and sometimes to often won't fit in a 3/4" hole, but would fit in a 7/8" hole. Now many folks won't ever use live cartridges, so this is not a problem when they don't, but can bite you in the butt if they want to do it. I suggest this is something to discuss with a customer.

The second problem with using 3/4" holes is that most or at least many Cartouche Pouch/Boxes with holes that size won't accept repro oilers as shown below.

Here is my personal favorite:
https://www.cg-tinsmith.com/product-page/oiler
I've heard good things about these, but have never tried them myself.
https://www.hotdiptin.com/product/oiler/
It's true that some or even most Militia Men would not have been issued such oilers, but some of these have been found in original American Cartouche Pouches of the AWI period and they have been documented as used here as early as in the FIW. Also during the FIW and off the top of my head, at least two "British Regular" Regiments were raised here from American Militia.

BTW Cartouche Boxes with too small of holes is not just a modern problem. To save me some typing, I will begin with the link below:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...-brown-bess-musket.147952/page-4#post-2099364What I did not add in that post was the added complaints on the Cartouche Boxes that came with those 10,000 muskets. Besides complaints of the poor condition and quality of the leather, a VERY common complaint was the holes in the Boxes were too small for carrying live cartridges and there was not enough wood in the blocks to open up the holes. So it was a well documented problem at times even during the historic period. I imagine they had new blocks made with large enough holes and cannibalized the leather off the boxes when they could, but have not been able to document that.

When I began doing the Black Watch at the end of the 1990's; I made most of my own leather gear including the musket sling, waist belt, bayonet frog and bayonet scabbard. However, I thought I would save time and money by buying a ready made Cartouche Box. Though I had to change the waist belt straps to go in front of the block, I had no other problems with it when using blank cartridges as I had made my own cartridge former. However, I could not get the aforementioned oiler in one of the holes. I figured out a way to "artfully" open one hole for the oiler with sanding cartridge rolls and some other tools, but was sweating big time to ensure the hole would not open outside the walls of the block. This would not have been as much of a problem with a block in a cartouche pouch, but figured right then and there I would never buy a cartouche pouch or box or block with 3/4" holes again.

Timber Rattler said:

I really like the double-buckle carriage too, even though it was a bit more work in measuring and making them, and added about $12 to the cost (for the price of the extra buckle). My guy is very tall and "robust" in size, and was not sure how long he needed his strap to be, so it just seemed like a good idea to give him a longer length but more adjustable at two points since we were communicating long distance by email, and I couldn't measure him in person. Apparently I got it just right for him!

Click to expand...

Sounds like it worked well.

Timber Rattler said:

The straight bottom with rounded ends was just easier to cut, and so I emulated some of the ones shown in the Collector's Encyclopedia (pages 66-77), which also gives it a bit of British flavor. But I'm looking to do the rounded bottoms moving forward after I get some better leather cutting knives and tools, with 8/9 oz flap leather curves being somewhat tough to cut cleanly.

Click to expand...

Again, I understand. I was never a trained leather worker. I've seen trained folks use round knives and admired what they could do with them, but without proper instruction, I worried about cutting my fingers off with a round knife. So since 1972, I have used a Utility Knife that Tandy no longer sells with the replacement blades made by them or stanley or other makers. I have extended them in my knife every so often when needed, but it has always worked well for me.
https://tandyleather.com/products/utility-knife-blades-5-pack?_pos=3&_sid=d8ab5f70b&_ss=r
More coming in next post.

Gus

Timber Rattler said:

I believe that the short answer is no, since the straps tend to be sewn directly to the pouches, usually underneath the flap ends. HOWEVER, you can make your own by buying a pre-cut 72" vegetable-tanned strap in whatever width you want on Ebay or Amazon for about $20, and then cut and sew yourself. For example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284125502012?hash=item4227331a3c:g:KfYAAOSwI95guwsa
WD-47 Veg Tanned Cow Leather Belt Blank Strip Strap 3/4-5/6-8/9-9/10-11/12-13/15 | eBay

If you want American leather from like Hermann Oak (Home | Hermann Oak Leather Co), you can get it from leather vendors like Tandy (Belts, Strips & Straps) and Weaver (Belt Blanks & Loops) but its more expensive.

A word of caution about the white straps though...these are made using the modern chromium process and contain salts that corrode iron and steel, and cause brass to tarnish more quickly. A British leather vendor I know told me last week that there is only ONE factory/tannery left in the world that makes correct 18th century white buff leather, and it is in the Czech Republic. The chromium-process white straps are also "fuzzy" on the rough side and will shed all over your clothes if you wear it inward. So, it's best to wear the smooth side next to your clothes with rough side out.

Click to expand...

I don't know if this was true for American Continental troops, but one historic bit of info re: the white or buff colored straps and belts used by British and other European troops in the eighteenth century is that they were commonly made from commercially-processed American deerhides that were harvested and traded by the thousands during that time. The demand created a horrendous cultural change among the Native peoples, especially in the Southeast, as maize agriculture and other self-supporting subsistance activities were abandoned over several generations so as to devote as much time as possible to the deerskin trade. Within two generations, our ancestors became totally dependent on Panton-Leslie and other trading post companies for food staples and other items they previously had made, grown, or or otherwise provided for themselves. The money to be made from deerskins was often the primary impetus for whites becoming longhunters.
I will have to go back and see if I can re-locate the historical resources I was uusing as a professional archaeologist 40+ years ago, but I do remember them stating that the majority of the white cartridge boxes, straps, swordbelts/baldrics, etc., associated with the armies of that time were made from American deerhide.

Cvkotvkse said:

I will have to go back and see if I can re-locate the historical resources I was uusing as a professional archaeologist 40+ years ago, but I do remember them stating that the majority of the white cartridge boxes, straps, swordbelts/baldrics, etc., associated with the armies of that time were made from American deerhide.

Click to expand...

With respect to them, I believe they clearly were mistaken, due in no small measure to the fact that deerskin is not thick enough leather nor had the right temper for those articles, but also because of what deerskins from North America were primarily used for in Europe at the time.

The primary use of the deerskin was in making gloves and breeches, the latter ranging from the common working man's breeches in the day for many tradesmen (similar to how blue jeans are used today) and all the way up to very fine breeches made for the Gentry and even Royalty for use in horse racing and hunting on horseback, as well as other outdoor activities.

Gus

Timber Rattler said:

Yes, I applied the inside of the pouch flap with a few coats of Vinegaroon. I had originally planned on NOT doing so, but when I was applying it to the front, some of the Vinegaroon leaked underneath the flap edges, making it splotchy and looking dirty underneath. I did not want to send it to my guy like that, since it looked sloppy and unprofessional, so I just coated the back of the flap too, which took about 2 minutes, and it looked better afterward. No regrets!

Click to expand...

Ah, now I understand.

OK, I am now going to sheepishly admit I only learned of Vinegaroon about 15 -20 years ago and still am not that good with it.

The reason they only dyed/stained the outer edges of the leather in the period was partly to save money on the dye, but more importantly so there was nothing to interfere with working oil into the rough side of the leather when needed.

One of a good number of good tips I have received here is to wet leather before applying oil to the rough side of the leather. This keeps folks (like me) from inundating the rough leather side with too much oil. So for example, when you turn the pouch portion inside out and the leather is still wet/moist, that's an excellent time to apply some leather oil inside the pouch. Matter of fact, I wet musket slings and other things I make and do an application of oil on them before I used or delivered them to others.

Timber Rattler said:

Here's the rear of the pouch.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

Gus

Artificer said:

Hi TR,

When I began making 18th century American Militia Cartouche Pouches back in the 1970's, about the only thing available to study was Sketchbook 76. I would have LOVED to have had a copy of this book then, but I didn't run across it until the early 1980's. I STILL occasionally refer back to it all these years later.

https://archive.org/details/artofhandsewingl0000stoh
A few years later, I picked up a copy of the following booklet. Yeah, I know it of almost no use for what you are asking, but it is a treasure trove of info on 18th century leatherworking.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/58293/58293-h/58293-h.htm
Fortunately in the later 1970's, I was allowed into the "back room or storage room" of the Historic Fort Wayne Foundation museum to look at original pouches and I learned a lot about them from originals.

Today there is an excellent online source to study original pouches in the link below. The first half or so of the examples should be right up your alley. You should be able to scroll down through it on this forum:



There are a lot of what some might call little things that will help you make your repros more accurate, because there were details they did in the 18th century that are no longer common for many leatherworkers. Most of the details also make repro items better and last longer.

We have had/have two great folks who have posted all kinds of 18th century leatherworking info on this forum and who I consider true experts. The first was La Bonte or LaBonte (though I can't find his name anymore in the membership lists) aka Chuck Burrows. Chuck left this world far too early in 2016. If anyone can find his correct membership name, perhaps his old posts are still available on the forum archives?

Capt. Jas. aka James Rogers is still with us and I highly recommend you use the search function and read everything he has written on the subject. A few years back, James recommended the following DVD's to me by Eric Myall. I bought the entire set and it was some of the best money I ever spent. Eric's health was not good then, but if it is still available, Part 6. Making a Militia Cartridge Box would be just the ticket for you.

https://thewilliamsburgsaddler.weebly.com/buy-dvds.html
Here is a more recent and great discussion involving Jay Howlett and his apprentice on 18th century stitching:


OK, more info in the next post.

Gus

Click to expand...

Great sources thank you sir.

Coinneach said:

Great sources thank you sir.

Click to expand...

You are most welcome, sir.

Gus

Timber Rattler said:

Thanks for the advice! Very helpful! Turns out that there's a Tandy retail shop within day-trip driving distance, so I'll be paying it a visit very soon to look for appropriate veg-tanned leather. Thanks again!

Click to expand...

This is one thing I learned from BrownBear on this forum and that was to keep an eye out on Tandy's website for sales on their veg tan shoulders. Every two or three months, they have sales on them. Then actually GO to the store and go through each pile of whatever oz weight you want to check for the best condition and temper (how they can bend/flex) for projects. There is a surprising amount of useable leather in some to many of these. Last time I went, I picked out the best four and each one would make a civilian pouch complete with strap, as long as you make the strap from two pieces for use with a buckle.
https://tandyleather.com/products/craftsman-oak-veg-tan-single-shoulders
Now, where these can help out with making a Militia Cartouche Pouch is you could get at least two if not three heavy weight flaps out of these pieces. That can save you some real money vs buying half bends or bends in that thickness.

OK, I've been thinking about showing you and anyone else interested mistakes I have made and sometimes such mistakes were also done in the period. I about fell over when I saw this pic from the slide show posted earlier:



Stitching across the width of a strap or waist belt like this can and eventually will cause the leather to crack through there when used enough. Heck, there is enough stress on straps that are not stitched across the width that they will fail from not keeping them oiled properly and just used, as seen in the strap on the left side of pouch in the following pic.




I was lucky for a long time in this not happening to me until I made the waist belt for my cartouche box and even though I did proper maintenance oiling when necessary. I had stitched the buckle on with the stitching going across the width of the strap, almost exactly as shown in the first pic above. In my third season of using the waist belt, it cracked right through the leather and I had to replace the entire belt. At the time I thought there might have been something wrong with the leather, rather than the way I had stitched the buckle on.

I didn't realize the reason the leather had cracked through until I thought to ask more questions on any differences in how trained leather workers stitched leather in the 18th century compared to how we amateurs might do it today. This is where info so generously shared by Capt. Jas. and the dvd's by Eric Myall came in so handy.

The period correct way to stitch on a buckle so the stitching won't go across the width of the belt or strap and as shown by Capt. Jas. is shown below. The stitching is run parallel to the length of the leather on the outer edges of the strap.



Here is a pic of a bunch of waiste belts Capt. Jas. made and stitched in this manner, though it is not as clear to see because of the extremely nice slides or runners he has with each belt.



Oh, one last thought about attaching straps to the back of pouches and again I'm going to use Capt. Jas. work as the example of how to do it. The only time you would stitch across the width of the strap or belt is at the very end of the strap where the stitching merely holds the end down and there is no bending/twisting force on that part of the strap.


BTW, I am not in any way connected with Capt. Jas. However, I am an ardent admirer of his work and very grateful for tips he has passed along on this forum.

Gus

OK, here is a style of the end of the pouch flap that was very much in style in the FIW and well into the AWI. This is not something that has to be done on a Militia Pouch flap, but is something that could easily have been done. Full disclosure; this is a real favorite of mine because I think it adds so much to the style of the pouch and I did this to mine on only the second pouch I ever made.




Here's another:


Not knowing the correct name for it, I called it a "double cyma" design for a long while before Capt. Jas. informed me it was/is more correctly called a "mirror cyma reversa."




There are a good number of others in the link of originals as well, and often a slight variation of the design.

This design was probably laid out using pointed calipers on the leather in the period. I had the calipers that come with one pointed end and one end with a pencil, but will sheepishly admit I never thought of using them.

I bought graph paper when I made mine and folded it in half, then folded one half in half again. I free drew the design, cut it out, then laid the cut half over the other half to mark and cut that half. I probably did it two or three times before I got what I liked best, but it was not very difficult to do. When I got what I liked the best, I used it as the template to mark and then cut the end of my flap.

Gus