Ramrods and Re-enactments (and stuff)

Panama Red said:

There is a serious evil in that, isn’t there? Killing a random purpose just for the sake of killing?

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I'm thinking he had an intended victim. It was the perfect means and opportunity, just need to know motive. Maybe someone in his own unit...

I brought it up to illustrate the need for diligence on the part of safety personnel and ordnance sgts at reenactments.
Folk reenact for a variety of reasons. For me, it was a love of history and a desire to see the story of brave and honorable men told.
But, there are those few...
My company commander, a combat vet in Viet Nam ( 1st Cavalry), said when I asked him " Why do you do this? You did it for REAL."
His response was quick and simple.
" Everybody goes home"
Indeed.

Not that I'm a Conspiracy Theorist, but, if he had shot someone:
1. Would that have been the death of battle reenacting, which is already on shaky ground in some states? (Disregard living history, where no guns are used.)
2. Would it have been done in order to accomplish #1?
3. Was the person an experienced reenactor, or a disgruntled something-or-other that didn't want folks doing anything with guns?

I can't believe one of our regular posters didn't already come up with this.

What do they call it, a Red Flag?

I ascribe nothing but malice to this individual's motive(s).
I don't know his level of experience, moral or philosophical leanings. I do know there is no good reason to do such a thing.
Always be diligent about safety. Take NOTHING for granted. Know who you're with.
Isn't AMAZING how after something terrible happens, the details suddenly emerge?
In my unit, we watched and listened carefully, to fresh fish and interested folk. There were a few we " Thanked for their interest", but no thanks...

Loyalist Dave said:

The combat loading procedure for the muskets of the flintlock era is unsafe.

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AMEN, BRO. Worth repeating, over and over. Do not ever, never ever, emulate the AWI era style of military combat loading!

Muddly said:

I was the Ordnance sergeant for my company ( E Co. 1st Texas Vol Infy)
And I was the only one permitted to draw a rammer on the field.
If someone else was spotted doing so, back to camp and home you go.
In our battalion, we also inspected sidearms, swords, artillery and cartridge boxes. You'd be shocked by what was occasionally found.
There was one fella our battalion ord. Sgt. found with a cut off and rethreaded rammer.
And the musket was loaded.
With a minie.
He used that rammer as a lesson to be very sure you spring ramers and not just look for the end flush with the muzzle, during weapons inspection.
Yes the cops were called. No they did nothing because " No actual crime was committed".
Lovely...

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Was the creep ever formally banned from participating in any reenactments again?

So far as I know, yes.

Ramrods and reenactments - I was brought up early in my reenacting days, no ramrods and never point at another person (elevated muzzle). Today, in the hobby, we see ramrods and lowered muzzles, why? To be historically accurate? Well when I have discussed this topic out of concern, the same folks that tell me that no ramrods and elevated muzzles are not historically accurate, tell me that the reenacted battles bear very little in common with the actual events being recreated. Stupid is all I can say, safety is important to all shooting sports, otherwise laws will continue to be enacted and our hobby will die.

Paul-in-PA said:

Ramrods and reenactments - I was brought up early in my reenacting days, no ramrods and never point at another person (elevated muzzle). Today, in the hobby, we see ramrods and lowered muzzles, why? To be historically accurate? Well when I have discussed this topic out of concern, the same folks that tell me that no ramrods and elevated muzzles are not historically accurate, tell me that the reenacted battles bear very little in common with the actual events being recreated. Stupid is all I can say, safety is important to all shooting sports, otherwise laws will continue to be enacted and our hobby will die.

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Elevated muzzles..... hmmm, back when I was doing ACW reenacting, while we never pulled a ramrod, we most certainly aimed directly at the opposing side. That only changed when distances closed to under 30yd or so. First Yank I "shot" was at New Market by the Bushong house. Their line was about 50yd distant and approaching. We locked eyes as I was screaming something foul at him. I drew down on that Yank Sgt who was exhorting his men to greater feats of valor, put the front sight on his breastplate, dropped the hammer and over he went. They talk about getting the "feeling" in reenacting, but you'll never ever get close aiming at birds in flight. Afterwards I shook that guys hand and we spoke of the young men in gray and blue. For those who've never been in the New Market reenactment, back then, the southern troops would hold the stone fence at the Bushong house. Acoustics were such that it made you thing minies were snapping through the air by you. Couple that with dropping a Yank and it was a reenactment I'll never forget.

Paul-in-PA said:

Ramrods and reenactments - I was brought up early in my reenacting days, no ramrods and never point at another person (elevated muzzle). Today, in the hobby, we see ramrods and lowered muzzles, why? To be historically accurate? Well when I have discussed this topic out of concern, the same folks that tell me that no ramrods and elevated muzzles are not historically accurate, tell me that the reenacted battles bear very little in common with the actual events being recreated. Stupid is all I can say, safety is important to all shooting sports, otherwise laws will continue to be enacted and our hobby will die.

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OK so first, the "no ramrods" was over reaction. Since nobody is ramming, and it's real obvious when one pulls a ramrod and rams and then replaces it, then there is no reason not to carry them in the musket. Further, one conducts "search muskets" which is using the ramrod to "ping" the breech of the empty and cleaned musket, done on the parade area, quite a distance from the camp.... and then the troops march off, no return to camp as guys will put down the musket "only for a second" and then you don't know about the musket.

Not all of the muskets use the same rammer, so each man drops the ramrod down the barrel, in front of the inspecting officer and the scribe. Otherwise, you have to take a pile of ramrods back to the camp after the inspection, and my Bess uses a one piece, forged ramrod, because the factory Pedersoli ramrods have a metal tip that works loose over time...., and I want my ramrod back at the end of the battle, it wasn't cheap. OR you wait while the inspector takes a ramrod and inspects every musket one at a time..., and if he finds a dirty musket, and that lone inspection ramrod gets stuck in the dirty barrel, then you have to send for another ramrod to replace the inspector's, while the guy with the dirty musket and stuck ramrod go back to camp to sort that out..., instead of telling Dick Dirty Barrel "You're done, take your musket ramrod back to camp".

As for elevation, it's well known that elevation actually is unsafe compared to level firing... but people don't want to comply with the reality, so you see folks still doing it... if the two sides are close enough for the normal flame from the muzzle to reach each other they are too close, period. You end up with elevation tossing burning powder farther because of the angle. Folks will also say, well you elevate so you're not actually aiming at the front rank of the opposing force, as "you never know", well all that means is you'd be tossing a musket ball farther and into the next wave, etc, and unlike a minnie ball in an ACW musket, you still don't ensure with elevation that ball isn't going right at the front line.

You've inspected guns and ammo by the sergeants, you've inspected muskets and sprung rammers, and you can't stop some jerk with evil intent from loading a live round no matter what you do short of cancelling the battle, because even the NPS policy of "no opposing forces" BS doesn't ensure there isn't a spectator downrange from the guys shooting. There is always a photography enthusiast (I'm being polite) who will thwart safety rules and marked boundaries to get the shot, including risking getting shot.

LD

Enfield58 said:

Was the creep ever formally banned from participating in any reenactments again?

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Well, if that was in silly war, then there, but there’s no overall re-enacting organization.

Rifleman1776 said:

AMEN, BRO. Worth repeating, over and over. Do not ever, never ever, emulate the AWI era style of military combat loading!

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Well, we know why they did it that way — for speed of loading. The “tap loading” that causes guys to have a sore c00ter, it’s an example. I watched Ethan on the 11 bang bang channel do that for a bunch of rounds and it was really fast. Don’t know what precautions he took. Neat channel.

Does that mean I’d do that? I dunno. Everyone thinks they can tell others what to do.

MAPMFF said:

@Loyalist Dave That is one thing I wish we were able to use a bit more, the bayonet. Perhaps not in a full on charge, but at least fielding with them fixed, such an integral part of the weapon itself and the tactics of the day and it is very under represented in reenactments today. I get the safety aspects, and I'm sure the insurance issues that drive a lot of it. But a guy can wish.

I'd be interested to see how the reenactments in Europe are with safety and injuries, where I've seen many a video of bayonets fixed, as well as ramming the blank charge home, and firing in very close proximity to other units.

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With 3D printers and cheap manufacturing the way they are now, you would think it would be pretty easy to get some soft rubber bayonets that look real, and meet original specifications.

Loyalist Dave said:

As for elevation, it's well known that elevation actually is unsafe compared to level firing... but people don't want to comply with the reality, so you see folks still doing it... if the two sides are close enough for the normal flame from the muzzle to reach each other they are too close, period. You end up with elevation tossing burning powder farther because of the angle. Folks will also say, well you elevate so you're not actually aiming at the front rank of the opposing force, as "you never know", well all that means is you'd be tossing a musket ball farther and into the next wave, etc, and unlike a minnie ball in an ACW musket, you still don't ensure with elevation that ball isn't going right at the front line.

LD

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'afternoon,

Well said. It's been proven that level aiming, or low aiming, is safer. But too many instantly forget that "what goes up must come down" when it comes to muskets. And most officers have magots for brains anyway, because they refuse to ever put down their authority and pick up a musket and fall in with the ranks.

Mike

Elevated fire is a bit silly in appearance.
My first " hit" was at Gettysburg in '98. A yank was looking down the sights of his Springfield, at your humble servant, like I owed him money...
Just before he busted cap, I had a silly thought cross my mind. He busted cap. I crumpled.
Silly 'till I thought on it.
I'm lying in the grass, uncomfortable as I have ever been...
But I'm not gutshot or contemplating the loss of a limb. Eternal peace and happiness to all who did.
Then, the silly thought hit me HARD.
Just before Billy Yank busted cap, I thought " That fella's gonna shoot me".
Then the COLD sweat ( 90° 70% humdity) hit and I could not stop shaking.
My " silly" thought ( cuz this isnt real, right?); How many men on that day (many before and too many to follow)had as his last thought in this world
" That fella's gonna shoot me"...

Muddly said:

Elevated fire is a bit silly in appearance.
My first " hit" was at Gettysburg in '98. A yank was looking down the sights of his Springfield, at your humble servant, like I owed him money...
Just before he busted cap, I had a silly thought cross my mind. He busted cap. I crumpled.
Silly 'till I thought on it.
I'm lying in the grass, uncomfortable as I have ever been...
But I'm not gutshot or contemplating the loss of a limb. Eternal peace and happiness to all who did.
Then, the silly thought hit me HARD.
Just before Billy Yank busted cap, I thought " That fella's gonna shoot me".
Then the COLD sweat ( 90° 70% humdity) hit and I could not stop shaking.
My " silly" thought ( cuz this isnt real, right?); How many men on that day (many before and too many to follow)had as his last thought in this world
" That fella's gonna shoot me"...

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Saw the elephant.

Had a similar occurrence once at Fort Ticonderoga, had been a pretty lousy event and absolutely poured out most of the weekend raining just about everything out. They hosted a skirmish on Sunday to try and salvage some of the weekend, it was a stick, hot, muggy morning and there was a fog about, we were fighting in a field that lays to the southwest of the fort, we were fighting in very open order and as we were moving along a Native warrior popped up from some tall brush in the mist, completely had the jump on me, we were too close to fire, however assuming his weapon would have gone off in the dampness that would have been the last thing I saw. The war paint, and war whoop he let loose...man facing Natives back then must have been a terrifying proposition.

MAPMFF said:

@Loyalist Dave That is one thing I wish we were able to use a bit more, the bayonet. Perhaps not in a full on charge, but at least fielding with them fixed, such an integral part of the weapon itself and the tactics of the day and it is very under represented in reenactments today. I get the safety aspects, and I'm sure the insurance issues that drive a lot of it. But a guy can wish.

I'd be interested to see how the reenactments in Europe are with safety and injuries, where I've seen many a video of bayonets fixed, as well as ramming the blank charge home, and firing in very close proximity to other units.

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Three years ago an accident happened in Holland when an "experienced" re enactor forgot to remove the ramrod during a demonstration.
Public was only 30 meters away.
A woman was hit in the stomach . she had severe injuries, her intestine was punctured multiple times, but luckily she survived and fully recovered months after

The re enactor was charged with negligence and brought before a court.

A few years ago, I was hoping to get involved with the living history program at Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine. They have formal training programs, a "Musket School" and a separate "Cannon School" for participants in their historic arms demonstrations. Note that the Castillo is federal property, a National Monument under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service (NPS). The training programs are excellent, and I completed both of them. The atmosphere was cheerful and upbeat, but it was clear that they had no tolerance for foolishness.

With very few exceptions (e.g. Gettysburg), the NPS does not allow "opposing lines of fire," meaning battle reenactments. The Olustee battlefield, also in Florida, is a state park. Anyway, shooting demonstrations for public viewing at the Castillo, musket and cannon, are strictly in the form of drills under the direction of an officer. Orders are given in Spanish. For muskets, they tear open a paper cartridge, prime and close the pan, dump the remaining powder down the muzzle and then cram in the empty, crumpled paper cartridge as wadding. This is with the gun on half-cock. They then withdraw the ramrod, ram the wad, and replace the ramrod. All of this is done with muzzles pointed or leaning downrange, and with limited exposure of one's thumb and forefinger to the muzzle while loading. Actual shooting is done toward the inlet, over the water, with the muzzles slightly elevated.

The loading and shooting sequence is very safe, and has been "vetted" by the NPS. Muskets must have a flash guard, and a leather hammerstall (frizzen cover) in place until ready to fire. The half-cock position must be strong and secure, as this is the "safety" on a flintlock.

To recap, the ramrod is used in this case in order to give an authentic representation of the loading sequence, but every step of loading and shooting is under the supervision of an officer. I initially had some reservations about personal safety in priming first and then loading, but with a secure half-cock and the hammerstall in place, I believe it is perfectly safe. And, to repeat, there are no opposing lines of fire, i.e, the muskets are never pointed in the direction of other people.

Notchy Bob

Notchy Bob said:

A few years ago, I was hoping to get involved with the living history program at Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine. They have formal training programs, a "Musket School" and a separate "Cannon School" for participants in their historic arms demonstrations. Note that the Castillo is federal property, a National Historic Site under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service (NPS). The training programs are excellent, and I completed both of them. The atmosphere was cheerful and upbeat, but it was clear that they had no tolerance for foolishness.

With very few exceptions (e.g. Gettysburg), the NPS does not allow "opposing lines of fire," meaning battle reenactments. The Olustee battlefield, also in Florida, is a state park. Anyway, shooting demonstrations for public viewing at the Castillo, musket and cannon, are strictly in the form of drills under the direction of an officer. Orders are given in Spanish. For muskets, they tear open a paper cartridge, prime and close the pan, dump the remaining powder down the muzzle and then cram in the empty, crumpled paper cartridge as wadding. This is with the gun on half-cock. They then withdraw the ramrod, ram the wad, and replace the ramrod. All of this is done with muzzles pointed or leaning downrange, and with limited exposure of one's thumb and forefinger to the muzzle while loading. Actual shooting is done toward the inlet, over the water, with the muzzles slightly elevated.

The loading and shooting sequence is very safe, and has been "vetted" by the NPS. Muskets must have a flash guard, and a leather hammerstall (frizzen cover) in place until ready to fire. The half-cock position must be strong and secure, as this is the "safety" on a flintlock.

To recap, the ramrod is used in this case in order to give an authentic representation of the loading sequence, but every step of loading and shooting is under the supervision of an officer. I initially had some reservations about personal safety in priming first and then loading, but with a secure half-cock and the hammerstall in place, I believe it is perfectly safe. And, to repeat, there are no opposing lines of fire, i.e, the muskets are never pointed in the direction of other people.

Notchy Bob

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How often do they do the reenactment stuff at the Castillo? Have some real good friends that live in St Augy, and we are only a couple hours away…
-Red, needs to go to St Augustine now…

What I find odd is that when hobbies or sports that involve guns result in injury, there's a massive public cry to stop the events. People die all the time driving race cars, scuba diving, and skydiving, but nobody is freaking out about those. They didn't stop Nascar when a tire crushed that lady in the stands.