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Point of impact shift.

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Hey guys, so, got to do a bit of shooting today with my favorite hawken. It’s a 54 with a real slow twist 1-72 twist 36” barrel. I have been noticing that the past several outings with a clean bore it shoots point of aim. However after two or three shots it starts throwing balls right. All my shooting today was off hand at a 12” plate @ 100 yards. First two shots bam hit right where I was aiming. Third shot miss and so on until I swabbed the bore. That returned me to point of aim. I tried several lubes today and noticed the same thing. Spit, moose milk, and a home made lube all the same thing? It’s not a small shift either we’re talking at least 6”. My question is is this common?? RBs were 530s powder was 110gr goex 3f. What would y’all suggest? Different powder? Lube seems to have no effect. Or just swab every shot or every other? Just seems strange to have such a large point of impact shift. Thoughts??
 
A lot of rifles, Muzzle Loader and Modern, shoot poorly or perfect with a cold clean bore.

All first shots on an ML are with a cold bore. And the ball goes where it goes. After the first shot, the bore is fouled, and the rifle will keep shooting that fouled bore well.

This is why I don't scrub the bore of a hunting gun after I get things dialed in. I want a fouled bore. So I know my cold bore first shot will be dead on when hunting. I run a bore snake through it and that it. Just to remove any unburnt powder.

The only way to get a cold bore with an ML every time, is to scrub your bore and dry it out after every shot. The same condition as if you're taking her off the wall and going hunting.

Good luck with. It can get frustrating.
 
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A lot of rifle ML and Modern rifles shoot poorly or perfect with a cold clean bore.

All first shots on an ML is with a cold bore. And the ball goes where it goes. After the first shot, the bore is fouled, and the rifle will keep shooting that fouled bore well.

This is why I don't scrub the bore of a hunting gun after I get things dialed in. I want a fouled bore. So I know my cold bore first shot will be dead on when hunting.

The only way to get a cold bore with an ML every time, is to scrub your bore and dry it out after every shot. The same condition as if your taking her off the wall and going hunting.

Good luck with. It can get frustrating.
First shot on a cold clean bore is perfect, second shot is as well. After that is when the shift happens. The load I stated is what I sighted the rifle in with and what shot the best. Is it normal to have a shift with fouling build up? I can live with swabbing every couple although I would prefer not to.
 
It's normal to have a slight shift with a dirty bore.

If it's a minor shift and still MOB/Minute Of Bambi, don't worry about it.

If you start cleaning after every one or two shots, remember to let the barrel get cold again.

Can make for a long day, but it's what you gotta do.
 
One thing happened to me once , when I was shooting competition with a 44" "C' wt. Getz one turn in 60 " , 50 cal.. Out of the blue , the gun got erratic concerning accuracy. Was back in the 1980's , my apologies , I can't remember the precise details , but Getz's said the bore was " slicked up" , and I had to rough the bore up with medium grade steel wool , to make it accurate again. It worked.
 
One thing happened to me once , when I was shooting competition with a 44" "C' wt. Getz one turn in 60 " , 50 cal.. Out of the blue , the gun got erratic concerning accuracy. Was back in the 1980's , my apologies , I can't remember the precise details , but Getz's said the bore was " slicked up" , and I had to rough the bore up with medium grade steel wool , to make it accurate again. It worked.
Interesting, thank you!
 
My question is is this common??
Yes.
Or just swab every shot,,,,
Yes.
Each shot deposits burnt BP residue/fouling. (including the first shot)
Fouling changes the bore condition. (and how the patch and lube interact with the bore and rifling)
The approach to fine accuracy is too maintain the bore condition in a similar manner within each subsequent shot.
This should not be confused with 1st shot hunting accuracy from a clean bore.
 
When shooting for accuracy/targets/matches I always load my first round and shoot it into the backstop to foul my gun. From then on I load with a wet patch. A clean bore on my gun is totally different than a slightly fouled bore. Wet patch loading keeps my barrel consistent from shot to shot. The same can be done by wiping between shots but I see no difference in wiping between shots than using a wet patch with the ball. Each shot should be consistent with the next and last one. I too use a 54 but my loads are much milder using 80grains of 2F. I’d be flinching and dreading my next shot using 110 grains of 3F. That makes me hurt just thinking about it.
 
When shooting for accuracy/targets/matches I always load my first round and shoot it into the backstop to foul my gun. From then on I load with a wet patch. A clean bore on my gun is totally different than a slightly fouled bore. Wet patch loading keeps my barrel consistent from shot to shot. The same can be done by wiping between shots but I see no difference in wiping between shots than using a wet patch with the ball. Each shot should be consistent with the next and last one. I too use a 54 but my loads are much milder using 80grains of 2F. I’d be flinching and dreading my next shot using 110 grains of 3F. That makes me hurt just thinking about it.
The 110gr of 3f is no problem, she’s a stout girl with a very heavy barrel 1 1-8 tapered to 1” at the muzzle. It also seems the 1-72 wants at least that to start preforming. This is primarily my hunting rifle but I do love shooting it! I have just never had a rifle that has this severe of a POI shift. Cleaning between shots it is!
 
Hey guys, so, got to do a bit of shooting today with my favorite hawken. It’s a 54 with a real slow twist 1-72 twist 36” barrel. I have been noticing that the past several outings with a clean bore it shoots point of aim. However after two or three shots it starts throwing balls right. All my shooting today was off hand at a 12” plate @ 100 yards. First two shots bam hit right where I was aiming. Third shot miss and so on until I swabbed the bore. That returned me to point of aim. I tried several lubes today and noticed the same thing. Spit, moose milk, and a home made lube all the same thing? It’s not a small shift either we’re talking at least 6”. My question is is this common?? RBs were 530s powder was 110gr goex 3f. What would y’all suggest? Different powder? Lube seems to have no effect. Or just swab every shot or every other? Just seems strange to have such a large point of impact shift. Thoughts??
Is there a chance that the stock is tight enough against the barrel that when it expands from heat the barrel is shifting sideways? Mini moons ago when I was using an unmentionable as a kid, it would walk considerably at 100 yards the longer I shot it. My dad thought I was nuts but I used Emery cloth to bring it out to where I had clearance that$1.00 bill with slip full length of the barrel and Eureka, it never walked again.
Squint
 
I also have a .54 and when I shoot it I like 60 grains of 3F, and all the prb including the first shot from a clean, cold barrel go into the group. I've used it to kill deer but it now only kills paper targets on the occasional day I take it to the range. I loaded 110 grns way back but came to realize I didn't need 1800 fps and more recoil. It's still a great rifle and I think I was lucky.
 
Shooting 100 yards off-hand might be a clue about your varying accuracy.
Maybe try bench resting it while working up a good load. Seems that is the tried and true method.
I had to go back and read the original post again. I didn’t see that he wrote 100 yard offhanded. Heck I’m happy to get all my shots in the black of a target at 100 yards using a bench rest and sandbags. OP it is my firm belief that muzzleloader groups should be determined at 50 yards off of a bench and bags. Offhanded at any distances is a fruitless endeavor to determine groups.
 
Hey guys, so, got to do a bit of shooting today with my favorite hawken. It’s a 54 with a real slow twist 1-72 twist 36” barrel. I have been noticing that the past several outings with a clean bore it shoots point of aim. However after two or three shots it starts throwing balls right. All my shooting today was off hand at a 12” plate @ 100 yards. First two shots bam hit right where I was aiming. Third shot miss and so on until I swabbed the bore. That returned me to point of aim. I tried several lubes today and noticed the same thing. Spit, moose milk, and a home made lube all the same thing? It’s not a small shift either we’re talking at least 6”. My question is is this common?? RBs were 530s powder was 110gr goex 3f. What would y’all suggest? Different powder? Lube seems to have no effect. Or just swab every shot or every other? Just seems strange to have such a large point of impact shift. Thoughts??
Usually when the point of impact changes after several shots without wiping the excess fouling from the barrel, the change is due to the internal dimensions of the barrel changing due to the buildup of fouling. In most cases the point of impact rises due to higher internal pressures. Since the point of impact returns to point of aim after wiping the bore, fouling buildup is certainly a contributing factor to the shift in impact. Most of the target shooters at my club will wipe the bore with a damp patch between shots. You could try loading the patched round ball with a very wet patch or wrap the ball with a damp patch and put a very wet patch on the loading jag to remove fouling.
 
When shooting for accuracy/targets/matches I always load my first round and shoot it into the backstop to foul my gun. From then on I load with a wet patch. A clean bore on my gun is totally different than a slightly fouled bore. Wet patch loading keeps my barrel consistent from shot to shot. The same can be done by wiping between shots but I see no difference in wiping between shots than using a wet patch with the ball. Each shot should be consistent with the next and last one. I too use a 54 but my loads are much milder using 80grains of 2F. I’d be flinching and dreading my next shot using 110 grains of 3F. That makes me hurt just thinking about it.
TreeMan: What do you wet your patch with when loading? Thanks!
 
Hey guys, so, got to do a bit of shooting today with my favorite hawken. It’s a 54 with a real slow twist 1-72 twist 36” barrel. I have been noticing that the past several outings with a clean bore it shoots point of aim. However after two or three shots it starts throwing balls right. All my shooting today was off hand at a 12” plate @ 100 yards. First two shots bam hit right where I was aiming. Third shot miss and so on until I swabbed the bore. That returned me to point of aim. I tried several lubes today and noticed the same thing. Spit, moose milk, and a home made lube all the same thing? It’s not a small shift either we’re talking at least 6”. My question is is this common?? RBs were 530s powder was 110gr goex 3f. What would y’all suggest? Different powder? Lube seems to have no effect. Or just swab every shot or every other? Just seems strange to have such a large point of impact shift. Thoughts??
At 36” long barrel + loose PRB + fouling from 3 previous shots + high MV from very large powder charge of fast (3fg) powder = PRP mostly skidding across fouling filled in rifling, the barrel starts acting like a partial smooth bore, therefore the useful grouping ability with this load combination in this barrel barrel is gone.

Your PRB is just barely taking rifling imparted rotation in a clean bore.
The slow twist in clean rifling and the long barrel imparts just enough rotational stabilization to the PRB to lull you into thinking you’ve discovered a great load.

In reality it a one trick pony, or rather a 1 to 2 shot accurate rifle.
It maybe fine for hunting big game but it‘s a dud for all day target practice at the range without a lot of wiping between shots to keep the PRB on target.

I would perform the following test:
Use a larger .535” ball and your regular patch material.
In a clean barrel insert a 6” x 1/2” brass rod, start the larger PRB ½” into the bore.
Now gently remove the PRB slide hammer fashion via the brass rod previously inserted.

The test is to see if your PRB has acquired the proper pattern of light and heavy patch weave marks embossed into the lead ball. You must see lightly embossed weave marks over the grooves and a deeper embossed weave pattern over the lands of the rifling.
It you don’t see this proper all around weave marks then use slightly thicker patch materia.

The ball is gripped by the patch and the patch takes the rifling.
At the moment of firing the ball is slugged up wider by the sudd acceleration and the mass of the ball must obey Newtons First Law of motion so it gets slightly wider getting an even better grip on the patch and rifling.

A larger PRB would be better served by by reducing the MV by using a lesser charge weight and the long barrel would make good use of slower burning 2fg powder so you could use less Powder. Smaller powder charge would not clog the rifling as quickly.

The tight fitting PRB is harder to load but that’s is because it is cleaning the rifling a bit as it is pushed down. Thereby extending the accurate shoot ability of the barrel before wet swapping is needed if ever.

100yds off hand shooting proves the skill of the rifleman but requires a proven accurate rifle and that is determined by bench rest shooting until a tight grouping load is developed.
 
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I'm the same, just swab between shots. I hunt and in most instances only the first shot counts so if that is on- whole deal.
 
Hey guys, I maybe should have clarified. The rifle has been sighted in. And zeroed with the above mentioned load @75 yards. This is my hunting rifle and that is why I zeroed at 75. The zero is not a problem and I know what the rifle does with the prescribed load. What I’m saying is that I have always noticed my POI shifts after 2-3 shots. This is not a small shift either. I am well aware fowling can cause a shift but I have never had a shift this large with any other rifle, that is why I’m curious and was asking opinions. Could there be something I’m over looking? Furthermore 100 yards off hand on a deer torso sized plate is in my opinion not a fruitless exercise. This would be a very common shot for me where I hunt and would like to be able to preform when the time comes. I suppose the fix like I mentioned above is just to swab every shot or every other to keep a constant bore condition. Either way I will do whatever it takes to figure this rifle out as I utterly love it! It is the best I have ever owned and maybe the best I ever will! Here is a couple pics I’m quite proud of her!
 

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