.50 cal Kibler Colonial smoothbore

Britsmoothy · May 18, 2023

Look, every muzzloader that comes to Europe has to be proofed.
They measure the barrel and overload it and remeasure the barrel. Nothing changed it gets stamped up good.

Great for breechloaders using nitro, a bit mute with black powder apart from someone trying to get away with making a barrel from zinc!
It's mute for a good steel barrel because black powder only yields so much.
The only real danger and it's the same for any firearm is an obstruction.
As long as the barrel is clear no harm will happen to the user.
The fear mongers forget that today you can indeed buy muzzloaders with brass barrels. Brass, a metal slightly harder than some cheeses. But they never say a thing against there use. But the moment recommend using 4f in a steel barrel they pop up blathering about pressures and plastic surgery. But they never condemn brass barrel. This is the hallmark of their unqualified comments.
Blow hard self appointed experts that actually know diddly squat.

The op is going to get bombarded with load suggestions and just get confused.
I told him what to do he can form a sound baseline with no fear implied as it simply is not needed for his advancement.
He can choose.

stikshooter · May 18, 2023

Britsmoothy said:
Look, every muzzloader that comes to Europe has to be proofed.
They measure the barrel and overload it and remeasure the barrel. Nothing changed it gets stamped up good.

Great for breechloaders using nitro, a bit mute with black powder apart from someone trying to get away with making a barrel from zinc!
It's mute for a good steel barrel because black powder only yields so much.
The only real danger and it's the same for any firearm is an obstruction.
As long as the barrel is clear no harm will happen to the user.
The fear mongers forget that today you can indeed buy muzzloaders with brass barrels. Brass, a metal slightly harder than some cheeses. But they never say a thing against there use. But the moment recommend using 4f in a steel barrel they pop up blathering about pressures and plastic surgery. But they never condemn brass barrel. This is the hallmark of their unqualified comments.
Blow hard self appointed experts that actually know diddly squat.

The op is going to get bombarded with load suggestions and just get confused.
I told him what to do he can form a sound baseline with no fear implied as it simply is not needed for his advancement.
He can choose.

Love it when common sense prevails /Ed

Sam squanch · May 18, 2023

I think you need the faster burning “punch” of 4 f to get the same velocity as modern shotgun cartridges. I tried 1 f in mine , totally useless. No penetration of the shot.

Sentry44 · May 18, 2023

Being new to frontloaders (not guns and hunting), when I started in the last year I was of course curious about all the same things I see lots of guys asking on forums.

The "Everything Black Powder" guy on Youtube makes his own powder, and tests it against commercial powders. He's also done some testing of questions, one of which was the difference in shooting different granulations in both pistol and rifle.

He went F through FFFF, and his conclusions...in THOSE two guns, were that FFFF pushed the ball a bit faster, but it was also the least consistent. He did note that FFFF did better in the pistol in terms of consistency.

It seems the general notion of using courser powder the larger the bore is probably not bad as a 'general rule.' But the 'why' of that isn't entirely clear.

Now, he ran equal charges of all. What I would be curious about is how would performance vary if you ran a series of tests where you backed the charge off by a set percentage the finer you went, judging on the basis of both (a) velocity consistency, and (b) accuracy.

Also, how would that look that with smooth bore and shot?

It all seems subjective, and probably would vary by gun and projectile, so we'll never "settle" any of this. The only thing I think that's likely untrue is any "danger" in using FFFF as a main charge. As was said above, no black powder granulation is anywhere near the power of smokeless in equal measure.

If I am purely GUESSING...I would bet the old guys didnt use FFFF for main because a PRB in a long barrel with slow twist wasn't accurate. But those beliefs were formed in a world before modern guns with faster twists, and maybe serious testing of finer granulations with backed off charges behind a conical would yield updated ideas.

Sentry44

Britsmoothy · May 18, 2023

I can use around 3/4 the volume to the shot volume with fine grade powder.
In a shotgun it is more efficient.

I initially advised the op to tip more shot in than powder.

zimmerstutzen · May 18, 2023

Britsmoothy said:
No load data, not a valid comment.

Barrel steel does not work harden. It is static.
More scare mongering.

Go away and find me a direct warning not to use 4f in a normally constructed muzzleloading firearm. You supply the figures instead of wetting your pants and trying get everyone else to wet theirs
" Keyboard toughie" that's hilarious coming from you sir! I'm no toughie but can spot a knee knocking sissy at a thousand yards!
Self opined expert, that is all you are.
Us that get on with it because we don't buy the jibbering rhetorical rub you guys up something fancy.
Produce the goods other than wet shorts Mr..... please.

Which barrel steel does not work harden. Please give us the alloy that was used in that Kibler? So we can verify in metallurgical texts. I have seen too many accidents, sued manufacturers, handled too many failed firearms. Decades ago, helped police departments with a few firearms investigations. I never pretended to know everything like you pretend. But I do know that nearly all steels can work harden, even mild low carbon steels. And most muzzle loader barrels intended for side locks are mild steel certainly not the alloys used in modern cartridge firearms.

Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:03 AM
To: Help Account <[email protected]>
Subject: New submission from Contact Us on IMRPowder.com

First Name
Ronald
Last Name
Lane
Email Address

Send us a Message
I am an old traditional flintlocker. I use 2fg and 3fg Goex for my main charges and 4fg Goex to prime my pans.
However an increasing amount of younger shooters wish to try 4fg as the main charge citing a lack of testing data showing there is a real danger of blowing up a gun.
Fact is, it's hard to successfully argue the point because I myself can find nothing definite against using 4fg as a main charge.
Do you have any data that you are willing to share with me to help me convince some of these shooters against the use of 4fg as a main charge?
Thank you,
Ronald Lane

Hello Ronald

Thank you for reaching out to us.
We appreciate your work and effort in passing along the traditions of muzzleloading to new shooters. We do not have pressure testing data for 4f powder. As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real.

Thank you again for your contribution to our youth and the tradition of muzzleloading.

Luke Otte
Technical support
6430 vista dr.
Shawnee, Ks 66218

Britsmoothy · May 18, 2023

zimmerstutzen said:
Which barrel steel does not work harden. Please give us the alloy that was used in that Kibler? So we can verify in metallurgical texts. I have seen too many accidents, sued manufacturers, handled too many failed firearms. Decades ago, helped police departments with a few firearms investigations. I never pretended to know everything like you pretend. But I do know that nearly all steels can work harden, even mild low carbon steels. And most muzzle loader barrels intended for side locks are mild steel certainly not the alloys used in modern cartridge firearms.

Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:03 AM
To: Help Account <[email protected]>
Subject: New submission from Contact Us on IMRPowder.com

First Name
Ronald
Last Name
Lane
Email Address

Send us a Message
I am an old traditional flintlocker. I use 2fg and 3fg Goex for my main charges and 4fg Goex to prime my pans.
However an increasing amount of younger shooters wish to try 4fg as the main charge citing a lack of testing data showing there is a real danger of blowing up a gun.
Fact is, it's hard to successfully argue the point because I myself can find nothing definite against using 4fg as a main charge.
Do you have any data that you are willing to share with me to help me convince some of these shooters against the use of 4fg as a main charge?
Thank you,
Ronald Lane

Hello Ronald

Thank you for reaching out to us.
We appreciate your work and effort in passing along the traditions of muzzleloading to new shooters. We do not have pressure testing data for 4f powder. As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real.

Thank you again for your contribution to our youth and the tradition of muzzleloading.

Luke Otte
Technical support
6430 vista dr.
Shawnee, Ks 66218

Standard lawyer approved reply.
It's good that you admitted you can not find any data to support your groundless notion. It's also interesting that hogdens also didn't give any data substantiating catastrophic failure.

Just how many firearm issues did you help the police with regarding the use of 4f? Was it err none maybe? I think so.

Steel does indeed work harden but not when it's static.

Argue all you like but unfortunately your forgetting that this has already stood the test of time.
Antique cartridges found to contain 4f or finer. Winchester did their level best to blow up their rifles and never could.
The day you blow a barrel up using 4f and document it all accurately come and tell me about it. Until then buddy I'd stop digging.

Terrier · May 18, 2023

stikshooter said:
I can say for him ,he and I both use 4f as a main charge,try it you'll like it (OR NOT) makes no difference to me /Ed

zimmerstutzen said:
Your face and plastic surgery bill.

I think he's mistaken you for a duck...

zimmerstutzen · May 18, 2023

Britsmoothy said:
Standard lawyer approved reply.
It's good that you admitted you can not find any data to support your groundless notion. It's also interesting that hogdens also didn't give any data substantiating catastrophic failure.

Just how many firearm issues did you help the police with regarding the use of 4f? Was it err none maybe? I think so.

Steel does indeed work harden but not when it's static.

Argue all you like but unfortunately your forgetting that this has already stood the test of time.
Antique cartridges found to contain 4f or finer. Winchester did their level best to blow up their rifles and never could.
The day you blow a barrel up using 4f and document it all accurately come and tell me about it. Until then buddy I'd stop digging.

Already stood the test of time? cite the authority upon which you base your claim.

Otherwise at least I cited Hogdon's answer on the matter. You have cited absolutely nothing. . You keep referencing things without citing authority. What antique cartridges, reloads or factory sealed. And who tested to determine whether it was actually black powder and whether the powder has disintegrated due to impurities, etc. Yep, without a citation, you are just blowing smoke.

64Springer · May 18, 2023

The timidity continues to run deep.

Britsmoothy · May 18, 2023

Here's one, right under your nose.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/4f-for-44-cal-revolvers.155327/

Britsmoothy · May 18, 2023

zimmerstutzen said:
Already stood the test of time? cite the authority upon which you base your claim.

Otherwise at least I cited Hogdon's answer on the matter. You have cited absolutely nothing. . You keep referencing things without citing authority. What antique cartridges, reloads or factory sealed. And who tested to determine whether it was actually black powder and whether the powder has disintegrated due to impurities, etc. Yep, without a citation, you are just blowing smoke.

Here's one, right under your nose.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/4f-for-44-cal-revolvers.155327/

Redlemur60 · May 18, 2023

Yes i do not wear a helmut!
4f baby

Sam squanch · May 18, 2023

I’ll use 4f in a modern barrel. In an original, I’d start with a reduced load and carefully work up from there….

WALT53 · May 18, 2023

Britsmoothy said:
Here's one, right under your nose.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/4f-for-44-cal-revolvers.155327/

Nathan I don’t think some people understand metallurgy and work hardening and stress relieving let alone the steal the new barrel are made of of an there tensial strength and ductility.

Britsmoothy · May 19, 2023

So let's get this right.
Our man Z, who has helped the police believes that firing a firearm, especially muzzleloaders suffer from metal fatigue..
Apparently he thinks that fatigue does not happen if in a muzzloader if you don't go any finer than 3f but using 4f will turn your muzzloader into a pipe bomb because the metal, steel ( no mention of even softer brass barrels) may of fatigued.

So how come thousands of original early breech loading shotguns, some with Damascus barrel have in the UK and Europe been reproofed to take modern nitro cartridges? Surely that is crazy according to Mr Z. After all who knows how much fatigue has occurred!!
How come some original Winchester 44-40 rifles, a black powder cartridge originally, made before Winchester started using nickel alloy steels are now using nitro loads! What about all them years of unknown levels of fatigue!!

Some folk talk of breech pressure as though it is the be all and end all of all that is bad. It's not, it's good. We need it otherwise we would shoot nothing.
Where they get mixed up is that the pressure that causes a failure is way way above any service or in most cases industry or proofing organisation levels.

There nothing stopping anyone from buying 4f and using it in a brass barrel and there is no warnings on the can to not use it in brass barrels. In fact there are no warnings about its consumption in any firearm on the can!
In Fact, it is easier to blow a fire arm up by going and buying a can of Alliant bullseye and filling a 44 magnum case. Fancy steel or not it will blow up. Not because it produced 10k more psi, no, it's because it will of gone off the scale!

So worry not, 4f in a sound firearm loaded correctly is not going to cause a failure.
If it could it would of been taken off the market to halt claims for damages and to protect bubba.
If Mr Z wants to learn more he can resource Sam Fadala's works and journals.
He conducted many experiments trying to explode barrels. 4f didn't blow a single barrel.
No need for fear mongering or negatively at all.

oreclan · May 19, 2023

harleysboss said:
The .410 with the TSS shot and the right choke can kill about twice as far as a .410 lead load. If you pattern your gun it will tell you the range in which it will get the job done. Lots of variables shooting shot loads, just gotta find the one that you and your gun like. As mentioned the Skychief load is a great place to start. My Kibler Colonial 58 SB has taken a trip to Kansas for a Jug Choke.

Will the Kibler .58 smooth bore barrel also shoot a .57 round ball?
Does it measure the same as the rifled .58 across the lands or across the grooves?

Sandro_Ventania · May 19, 2023

Britsmoothy said:
So let's get this right.
Our man Z, who has helped the police believes that firing a firearm, especially muzzleloaders suffer from metal fatigue..
Apparently he thinks that fatigue does not happen if in a muzzloader if you don't go any finer than 3f but using 4f will turn your muzzloader into a pipe bomb because the metal, steel ( no mention of even softer brass barrels) may of fatigued.

So how come thousands of original early breech loading shotguns, some with Damascus barrel have in the UK and Europe been reproofed to take modern nitro cartridges? Surely that is crazy according to Mr Z. After all who knows how much fatigue has occurred!!
How come some original Winchester 44-40 rifles, a black powder cartridge originally, made before Winchester started using nickel alloy steels are now using nitro loads! What about all them years of unknown levels of fatigue!!

Some folk talk of breech pressure as though it is the be all and end all of all that is bad. It's not, it's good. We need it otherwise we would shoot nothing.
Where they get mixed up is that the pressure that causes a failure is way way above any service or in most cases industry or proofing organisation levels.

There nothing stopping anyone from buying 4f and using it in a brass barrel and there is no warnings on the can to not use it in brass barrels. In fact there are no warnings about its consumption in any firearm on the can!
In Fact, it is easier to blow a fire arm up by going and buying a can of Alliant bullseye and filling a 44 magnum case. Fancy steel or not it will blow up. Not because it produced 10k more psi, no, it's because it will of gone off the scale!

So worry not, 4f in a sound firearm loaded correctly is not going to cause a failure.
If it could it would of been taken off the market to halt claims for damages and to protect bubba.
If Mr Z wants to learn more he can resource Sam Fadala's works and journals.
He conducted many experiments trying to explode barrels. 4f didn't blow a single barrel.
No need for fear mongering or negatively at all.

talking about barrel resistance...
what wall thickness in the chamber traditionally used?

TNTraveler · May 19, 2023

oreclan said:
Will the Kibler .58 smooth bore barrel also shoot a .57 round ball?
Does it measure the same as the rifled .58 across the lands or across the grooves?

Yes it will shoot a rb you would need to try different sizes ball/patch to see what it likes best, it would measure .580 across the barrel

Britsmoothy · May 19, 2023

Sandro_Ventania said:
talking about barrel resistance...
what wall thickness in the chamber traditionally used?

??? I don't understand your

.50 cal Kibler Colonial smoothbore

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