Question about Loyalist Arms and Repairs

One of the truly sad aspects of reenacting, is that if one should require a Long Land Pattern Musket or a French Infantry Musket that is affordable and reasonably historically correct, the long guns manufactured in India are the only such guns available. Rifle Shoppe parts and Track of the Wolf only offers one parts kit and often needed parts are out of stock. The Narragansett Arms guns are no longer being produced. The Coach and Harness musket has been out of production for close to 40 years. The Japanese Short Land pattern muskets are likewise long out of production. Pedersoli only offers the Short Land Pattern and even when accepting the flaws in their Short Land Pattern, it is really only applicable to British Regular Infantry during the American War of Independance.

If a musket is desired to reenact a persona during the French and Indian War or a Colonial Infantry or Militia armed with a smooth bored gun, the choices for affordable muskets are limited to the offerings that were manufactured in India. We can address the shortcomings of those guns and describe how to best overcome those shortcomings, but we can't forget that in all too many cases those guns are the only choices we have.

So, we can heed the advice offered by @cebusey and understand that we can objectively evaluate the choice of a musket and go with the importers that do provide safe if not entirely perfect examples of guns of the era that we want to reenact. I do not want to be beating a $3,000 to $4,000 kit gun, professionally assembled as I go beating my musket around during reenactments and live firing during woods walks. Therefore, my musket of choice is a Long Land Pattern imported by Loyalist Arms.

If we want a very reliable flintlock rifle, then the Kibler kits offer some of the best value out there.

I believe Loyalist Arms includes a ball, fuse and instructions on how to remove the barrel, load it and then test it. (Using an old tire as a secured rest for the barrel.) That is what a friend of mine got when he received his 42 Springfield musketoon. He loaded it as per the instructions with 200 gr. and let it rip. No breakage or swelling of the barrel. He shoots it fairly regularly to this day with no issues.

Sidney Smith said:

If you're OK with owning sub par items, that's your right. I personally will never own anything made in India, as I don't think they can compete with better quality firearms, etc. that's my right.

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If you take any prescribed drugs, they are probably made in India.
Major segments of Indian Pharmaceutical Industry include generic drugs, OTC medicines, bulk drugs, vaccines, contract research & manufacturing, biosimilars and biologics.

Grenadier1758 said:

Such a self conducted test is not a proof test.

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Since there are no proof house in the USA, I guess self proof or no proof.

Mikekj said:

Since there are no proof house in the USA, I guess self proof or no proof.

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Well "proofing" is a specific term, and you can't really do it at home. You can do a crude test, for sure. Some may have the means to do a rather extensive test.

Folks don't understand that for black powder muzzle loading guns and rifles, each proofing house has it's own unique standards. They are not standardized as they are with modern, fixed ammo. So it's quite possible that the Italian proof house or Spanish proof house might pass a barrel that would fail in England or Germany. PLUS folks seem to misunderstand that the proofing of the barrel applies to that barrel when it left the proofing house. What has happened to that barrel since? That proofing mark doesn't prevent misuse or neglect from making a once safe barrel unsafe to fire.

We have members here on this forum that have had to put their Loyalist Arms LLC muskets through actual proof testing and they passed. (iirc) Two members were in Germany, and one member was in England.

LD

Flintlock Whiskey said:

I have to say that this is probably the most useful advice I have ever received on this site.

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Great advice for sure. Nothing sours the flintlock experience more than a lesser quality lock. An important factor to consider is the ultimate resale value. Most would agree a mediocre flintlock’s
resale value will greatly diminish whereas the Kibler and custom-builds require much more upfront but generally appreciate in value. You will not lose money on a well assembled and finished Kibler kit. As with his and other higher end guns the joy of the reliable flintlock is worth the price.
Snoot

My brother and I have six India made flintlocks all perform well and are reasonably well made the locks function correctly and the frizzen were hardened right from the factory I would place them on par with pedsoli and other Imports of that type I don't think any used Flintlock whether it's a Kibler track of the Wolf or any other reasonably made us musket is going to appreciate in value black powder tends to stain burn and provide a well used look to its outward appearance they probably devalue slower than the India guns but then India guns are 1/3 the cost

Imagine what these Indian gunmakers could do with better steel, better stock wood, better shop conditions, and a quality control program. And offering more of a selection than pedersoli.

Sam squanch said:

Imagine what these Indian gunmakers could do with better steel, better stock wood, better shop conditions, and a quality control program. And offering more of a selection than pedersoli.

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And having to charge Pedersoli prices to afford all these higher quality items.

I do wonder about people who complain that a $600 musket is not as nicely finished as a $1,200 one.

Left to themselves and not driven by a penny pinching business owner Jaipur workmen can do some very fine work. And have been doing so for centuries. But you will pay the price for the extra man hours and quality and imported materials.

In my opinion the biggest detraction of an Indian made musket (and I own a Loyalist imported Fusil) is the teakwood / rosewood stocks. It is not the best wood to use, often hard to stain, subject to splitting and heavy. I have a Japanese Brown Bess, a Belgium / Stoeger arms 1777 and Loyalist Arms Fusil for less than what I could buy a Pedersoli Brown Bess.
All function fine and meet my needs. I have been considering visiting a gentleman who advertises locally to buy a slab of cherry to someday restock the Fusil with. Too many other projects to do first.

cebusey said:

Neither Pedersoli or Indian made arms will touch the quality of a well assembled Kibler - but not all of us can afford that fair but expensive price tag.

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Yes, but again, you’re comparing apples to say, watermelons. Kibler doesn’t make a musket and I doubt he ever will. Sad, because his stuff is the bomb.

If you’re a reenactor, most likely you need a musket. That leaves very little choices. Indian imports or a crazy expensive custom made from parts kits that are very often not in stock. I’m sorry, I’m not taking an expensive gun to a reenactment where it will be banged about, rained on, laid on the ground, damaged when you take a hit, etc.

If buying a musket, most of the importers go over them first. I know Veteran Arms does. Discuss with them not over-polishing the gun. Things like that. There’s no one, good answer.

Want to see how some work? Go to YouTube and and watch the 11 bang bang channel

Sam squanch said:

Imagine what these Indian gunmakers could do with better steel, better stock wood, better shop conditions, and a quality control program. And offering more of a selection than pedersoli.

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Yes! I've said much the same thing, you are correct! But then they might have to jack the prices up! There's always cause & effect. Thanks.

Surfinator58 said:

My brother and I have six India made flintlocks all perform well and are reasonably well made the locks function correctly and the frizzen were hardened right from the factory I would place them on par with pedsoli and other Imports of that type I don't think any used Flintlock whether it's a Kibler track of the Wolf or any other reasonably made us musket is going to appreciate in value black powder tends to stain burn and provide a well used look to its outward appearance they probably devalue slower than the India guns but then India guns are 1/3 the cost

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With 6, you have some real experience with them! I had over time 3 diff. ones (from Vet. Arms) but never really shot them; traded them off soon for whatever reason. Good to hear about the frizzens!

RAEDWALD said:

And having to charge Pedersoli prices to afford all these higher quality items.

I do wonder about people who complain that a $600 musket is not as nicely finished as a $1,200 one.

Left to themselves and not driven by a penny pinching business owner Jaipur workmen can do some very fine work. And have been doing so for centuries. But you will pay the price for the extra man hours and quality and imported materials.

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True.
As a side point, Watching videos of third world craftsmen (the Kamis in Nepal come to mind) making functional and even quality items under incredibly "economic" conditions is something to see.

Flintlock Whiskey said:

True.
As a side point, Watching videos of third world craftsmen (the Kamis in Nepal come to mind) making functional and even quality items under incredibly "economic" conditions is something to see.

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Those mountain gunsmiths were certainly ingenuous!

Flintlock Whiskey said:

I was kinda hunting around for an indian trade or short land pattern bess and came across this company. Their prices are significantly less than what I have been seeing. Is this because the guns are made in India or what?

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I have three from Loyalist Arms; my first was a Light Dragoon, then the early model Navel Musket (like a cut down Bess), and their Dutch Doglock Blunderbuss.
All have served me well for over 15 years however the Musket is now in need of main spring work - it has gone 'limp' on me but still fires just not fast enough on a windy day...it has also seen the most use. I 'proofed' the musket myself following their instructions where the other two were done by another.

Their India guns are a good way to jump in and get the bug then save up for a more expensive one. My first after the Loyalist was a Pedersoli (Pennsylvania in .50 and a Kentucky pistol in .45) both of which are solid shooters. Then some others of various makers.

Ask about 'Pedersoli' on this forum and you will open the same "Can of Worms".

Mad L said:

Ask about 'Pedersoli' on this forum and you will open the same "Can of Worms".

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Some on the N-SSA forum say that "Pedersoli" muskets aren't an accurate enough reproduction for N-SSA matches.
They were snottier than elite college sorority girls when looking at other's clothes when Indian muskets were even mentioned.

Pedersoli muskets are approved for use in N-SSA competition. The N-SSA approval is based on dimensional accuracy so if someone says they aren't accurate enough (in appearance) that is a personal opinion and not that of the association.

As far as I know no Indian made arm has ever been summitted to the Small Arms Committee and I doubt one would pass. In addition the arm would have to have a barrel proofed in a national proof house or made by a recognized barrel maker Like Hoyt, Large or Whitaker.

hawkeye2 said:

Pedersoli muskets are approved for use in N-SSA competition. The N-SSA approval is based on dimensional accuracy so if someone says they aren't accurate enough (in appearance) that is a personal opinion and not that of the association.

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correct, I was pointing out the elitism that is typical within any group of humans.
This group was stating that one particular Pedersoli repro didn't have the correct bands for its model designation.


Edits:
changed "typical of" to "typical within" for accuracy of the human condition

I think I will be ordering an in stock gun from either Veteran arms or The Muzzleloader shop.