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Early 1500s Snapping Matchlock carbine

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Michael would be proud of you TobJohn!
Bit too busy to visit here much at present!
Thanks!

With the resurrection painting, I thought I had finally found a painting to use as a source, that he had not already posted. While trying to find his handgonne thread, I of course saw that he had already posted it.

For early snapping locks, I scrolled through the rest of the Maximillian armory book and there is an example of an arquebus with a forward snapping lock:
MaximillianArmoryForwardSerpentine.jpg

What is particularly interesting is that it looks to have a lock plate. The other image has the serpentines directly attached to the barrel, with no visible lockplate. The lack of lock plate isn’t too unique, because the hermitage gun lacks one, but I’ve never seen the serpentine attached to the barrel in that style. I had assumed it was the artist's mistake, but given the accurate depiction of a forward facing lock, it could actually be an intentional depiction of an unusual lock arrangement.

A contemporary wall piece showing the same lock type:
D108199_a884fa410c.jpg

MaximillianArmoryForwardSerpentine.jpg

vs
Maximillian Armory.jpg


If anyone wants to check for themselves:
bavarikon
 
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I found Michael's own thoughts on the matter:

Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - A Very Rare Nuremberg Arquebus 'Bronze'/Brass Barrel, ca. 1500-10
A Very Rare Nuremberg Arquebus 'Bronze'/Brass Barrel, ca. 1500-10 - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

He dismisses it as the artist's mistake. Looking at high res image, the gun is actually very detailed, so now I am getting suspicious that there is something to it being real. However, the obvious problem is how would it actually work.
MaximilianArquebusDetail.jpg

Notice:
Touchhole in the pan
Pan cover, and even possible the bottom of its pin or screw
Trigger button
Sear catch blocking the serpentine tail
Lug/pin for the serpentine to rotate on.

I still see no way for it to actually work, but interesting that the artist got all of these small details, just to massively mess up the placement of the serpentine.

As detailed as I can get for the other arquebus, for anyone wanting to make their own comparisons:
ArquebusPage299.jpg
 
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Tob,
I like the way you dig into things! I am very proud of you as well!

To me, the top lock can't work.
No spring is to be seen for the serpent. It can't be inside, as we can't put a spring inside the barrel, so feel that though the artist knew a lot about a tinder lock, he may not have known everything.
Even attaching the serpent to the barrel would be hard work compared to the stock, but we do know that some later hand Gonnes had this arrangement, attached to the iron anyway, even if behind the barrel on the tiller.
The second depiction is very doable, and feel this is more accurate.
Of course, I am happy to be found wrong regarding the first picture!

all the best,
Richard.
 
Okay,
Thinking of a way to make the first picture work!
a spring could be attached to the stock, but it would need to slide in the direction of the muzzle..
I think this is a blind alley, as it would be a mechanism like none known for such a lock..
 
Tob,
I like the way you dig into things! I am very proud of you as well!

To me, the top lock can't work.
No spring is to be seen for the serpent. It can't be inside, as we can't put a spring inside the barrel, so feel that though the artist knew a lot about a tinder lock, he may not have known everything.
Even attaching the serpent to the barrel would be hard work compared to the stock, but we do know that some later hand Gonnes had this arrangement, attached to the iron anyway, even if behind the barrel on the tiller.
The second depiction is very doable, and feel this is more accurate.
Of course, I am happy to be found wrong regarding the first picture!

all the best,
Richard.
Yes, I think you are correct. The only possible method I can think of is that the catch goes between the serpentine and the barrel. Pushing the trigger button removes it from the serpentine’s path and it falls down from gravity. This seems like a terrible system, but would work with how far above the pan the serpentine is. It’s a visual inventory, so maybe the artist got the first couple on the wall wrong, and didn’t realize until he got to the gun he used as the model for the soldier holding it (the others aren’t as detailed). At that point, he already committed and just went with it lol.

An additional suspicious feature is that all the pans on all the guns are too far above the stock.
I just noticed the surviving wall gun has a pan fairly far above the stock
 
If you look at the Viking Sword Forum Hector, there are literally hundreds of detailed photos of originals.
That's all I ever used, no real measuring except one that had a lock only a half inch wide. That one took some figuring to get the guts to fit!

Here is one for a start Hector, but any posts started by Michael, (Matchlock) will have more pictures than you will see anywhere else.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7542&highlight=tinderlock
Best,
R.
Sir;
Wow!
That is a lot of information. I will have a lot of reading for tonight. Fantastic photograph of hand made screws, which are beyond my skills.
Stay alert, stay safe.
Thank you,
Hector
 
Here’s another gem handcrafted by the noted gunsmith and blacksmith, Brian Anderson, who hails from from VT. It is a 58-cal rifled carbine with a 24” barrel. The ‘button’ to the left of the serpentine functions as the ‘trigger’.

Stocked in cherry, it is a joy to shoulder! Although as a lefty I need to curl a finger down and back up around the wrist, akin to playing on the neck of a guitar, albeit the hand is positioned upside-down as compared to the guitar, in order to hit the button.

Can’t wait to shoot her this upcoming weekend at my Club’s annual Spring shoot!

View attachment 129694

View attachment 129695
Sir;
Thank you for posting those wonderful photographs of the matchlock. After your shoot, is there any chance of getting a photograph of the backside of the lock and trigger?
Thank you,
Hector
 
Dear Hector . I am pretty sure niether of us have been Knighted we are just plain plebs , Pukka gives you good advise much depends on what time period and national style you fancy or feel need for I allways favoured the Venician sort fits in the Tudor time frame ,And simply because it gives a 'Normal shoulder stock & a trigger where you expect it & sights where you are used to , There is a Video out shewing just such a gun is being shot . It's one of my make & Pukka shoots an Indian original for comparison . I call them the' Mary Rose' type since such styles (All vary ) where recovered in recent times from her when she sank in 1545 or thereabouts . That region produce thousands Henry the Eigth bought or wanted to buy thousands .They where the AKs of their age but all varied .Three at least are preserved in the Tower or Leeds RA as it is now . But that all up to your fancy you might go Indian Sub continent far east & anywhere in between,
Regards Rudyard
Sir Rudyard, has a nice ring to it...
Hector
 
Because this thread is already about 1500s snapping matchlocks and this was not enough for its own thread:
I had assumed this was mislabeled and was actually a handgonne:
View attachment 195373
Matchlock muzzle-loading gun - Royal Armouries collections

But I just found its exact pair in lefthanded format, showing the lock mechanism:
View attachment 195374

Gewehr: Linksseitige Handbüchse mit Luntenschloss

So far the simplest snapping lock I have seen, with not even a button to push the sear.
For anyone interested in this arquebus, I took some photos of the RA examples, showing different angles:
B13377D1-A2E6-4A96-9BD8-4662AB5CFDB3.jpeg

F49B2B9D-E948-4DC8-B0CA-5911BC339E52.jpeg

1A1C19BF-88C0-422B-BDC3-82686AE31E26.jpeg

12BDBE0F-986F-405B-8E81-B25866DE8F66.jpeg

The links to the museums have side profile images and dimension, so I figured these images could help anyone interested in replicating one.
 

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