Offhand shooting?

rusticbob said:

I am having a problem shooting offhand with my new 20ga Fowler.
From the bench, I can keep all my balls in a 4” square block. That’s at 25 yards , using .600 ball, .018 patch and 65gr fffg. Of course I did put a homemade rear sight on it, helped a bunch.
My problem is offhand shooting, same target, same gun, same load, same range! Everything is off to the right side, sometimes a foot right! The elevation seems fine most of the time, but everything is to the right of the target. Shot 20-25 rounds today and am getting frustrated.
I am fairly new to flintlock shooting, but not new to shooting at all.
Any ideas?

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Guessing with limited information. How heavy is your trigger pull? I have found that with new shooters using guns with heavier triggers they tended to pull shots to the right (assuming a right handed shot) when going from bench shooting to to offhand. Also, with a flintlock, lock time with a gun not properly setup will be a tad on the long side, magnifying any issues. Something to maybe look at.

To this day I still say to myself, " nothing moves but the trigger finger" and I've been shooting those other things and muzzle loaders for 40 years.

Grenadier1758 said:

One could call it a flinch, or you are making an intentional movement as you pull the trigger your left hand is pushing the barrel to the right. Maybe lifting your cheek from the stock to look for the impact and get around the smoke. Follow through, follow through, follow through. Wait for the smoke to clear.

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rusticbob,
There's a lot of good responses here. Take them to heart and IF you can follow the advice that's been provided your shooting will improve. I'm Left Handed and the issue I have is pretty much exactly what you described, only going the other way. When I fail to do everything correctly my shots fly off to the LEFT. I'm in my 70's now. I've enjoyed a lifetime of competitive shooting of all types, including conventional pistol, NRA highpower rifle, IPSC, IDPA, PPC, ATA Trap, NSSA Skeet..handgun hunting, bowhunting....well....you get the idea. Shooting a flintlock rifle OFFHAND consistently well is one of the most difficult shooting skills I have ever tried to develop. In my experience it's similar to shooting a bow or a handgun consistently well in that you can't successfully do it "once in a while". That said...OTOH..merely going out and burning powder in so-called "practice" is a waste of time and resources. I used to shoot ATA Trap with men who never improved despite shooting every week and burning through hundreds of shells. All they were "practicing" was calling PULL and flinging shot downrange.
Don't fall into that trap with your flintlock. Consider all the advice already provided here and when you're at the range with your rifle...work the problem. Dryfiring as described, with a piece of wood in your cock should help. Do it everyday...not once in a while. This has already been said, but it's so critical that I'm going to say it again..Flintlocks require follow through. HOLD THROUGH THE SHOT.
See you on the offhand line.

I’m looking for a small piece of scrap wood right now. I will try the the dry firing a lot, might be what works, it’s sounds feasible as a partial solution.

Practice "calling" your shots. form a mental image of the sight picture when the shot fired, if you cant then you either blinked or flinched, both will cause you to pull the shot. with practice you will know where the ball hit without having to walk down and check the target.

another trick (at least for me) is to apply a bit of technique I picked up shooting spring piston airguns, don't "death grip" your rifle, keep the muscles in your hands relaxed. I also keep my thumb laying alongside the wrist instead of wrapping it over the top, if I do jerk the trigger or tense my hand a bit this keeps my thumb from twisting the stock and pulling the shot to the right.

If you haven't, join in our monthly matches in the shooting contests section, we shoot offhand at 25yds. It's a great way to improve you skills and another excuse to get out on the range and make smoke.

Chris

Dry fire,dry fire,dry fire.
Practice,practice,practice…

A wooden clothes pin cut too size is what I use for dry firing…

I tend too “pull” shots too the right as well..
Squeeze the trigger..slowly…

Off hand water bottle in the grass at 60 yards. .40 caliber Tennessee.

Might try moving your lead foot to the left a bit. Often if you are shooting to the right your natural body stance is centered to far right. It is normal for the muscles to relax once trigger is pulled which will push the muzzle a bit. It usually isn't much but just a fraction of an inch at the muzzle translates to inches at 25 yards and feet at a hundred. Follow through is everything but hard to train your body to do.

Thank you all for the good advise.
I have a piece of wood in the jaws now, and will drive my wife crazy dry firing all the time. It is a new gun , and the trigger pull is heavier than I would like, but it may smooth out with use, or I may just get used to it.
Now that I have a load which shoots good from a bench, the problem is solvable with some effort on my part. I love shooting these large .600 balls, just seems more satisfying than the small bores. Am I crazy?

rusticbob said:

Thank you all for the good advise.
I have a piece of wood in the jaws now, and will drive my wife crazy dry firing all the time. It is a new gun , and the trigger pull is heavier than I would like, but it may smooth out with use, or I may just get used to it.
Now that I have a load which shoots good from a bench, the problem is solvable with some effort on my part. I love shooting these large .600 balls, just seems more satisfying than the small bores. Am I crazy?

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Go in the garage where she cannot hear you.

Dry firing is the most recommended practice to improve your shooting.

I dry fire 10 minutes each day when starting the shooting season.

My son is a crack shot with everything......except his flintlock. He's an Army Infantryman, qualified expert with all weapons, is his rifle team's "squad designated marksman" and carries the $10,000 precision HK AR10, and he's always been good. He outshot me at age 13 with both rifle and shotgun at Boy Scout summer camp one year, when he won Top Shot out of @4-500 scouts(I won it for the adults).

He is money with his percussion Zoli Zouave rifle, so it's not the size/weight of the gun. It's the flintlock flinch, and he hasn't been able to shake it. I actually worked up "the load" for his .54cal longrifle, and it shoots 1.5" groups of 5 at 50yds from a bench, so it ain't the gun itself. It's him and he knows it. He's working on it.

I agree, this is most probably the OP's issue. And the fix that I know that works is rangetime. Lots of rangetime.

M. De Land said:

Try this. Pull your support arm back to the front or top of trigger guard contacting the open palm of your hand which is pointed at the target and put the elbow of the support arm against your torso or belly . You should be facing the target at about a 45 degree angle to the side. The front of the gun is only supported not held by the support arm hand palm.
Now do your normal focus on front sight , center or six o'clock on target and squeeze off the shot holding the sight picture until the recoil takes it out of focus.

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This is the most steady posture and what competition shooters use for accuracy, standing and shooting offhand.

Question ; how is your grouping when bench resting, using your same/consistent load ?

rusticbob said:

No, the hold position is probably not it, I do have a homemade rear sight. I probably just need more practice. What is confusing is all my shots are going right? I would assume I am holding it wrong?

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Your right hand my be twisting to the right when pulling the trigger or as stated earlier, peeking, focus on follow through. That is something I have to remind myself to do.

Ben Meyer said:

My son is a crack shot with everything......except his flintlock. He's an Army Infantryman, qualified expert with all weapons, is his rifle team's "squad designated marksman" and carries the $10,000 precision HK AR10, and he's always been good. He outshot me at age 13 with both rifle and shotgun at Boy Scout summer camp one year, when he won Top Shot out of @4-500 scouts(I won it for the adults).

He is money with his percussion Zoli Zouave rifle, so it's not the size/weight of the gun. It's the flintlock flinch, and he hasn't been able to shake it. I actually worked up "the load" for his .54cal longrifle, and it shoots 1.5" groups of 5 at 50yds from a bench, so it ain't the gun itself. It's him and he knows it. He's working on it.

I agree, this is most probably the OP's issue. And thrange time. I know that works is rangetime. Lots of rangetime.

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That makes me feel better, maybe I have hope.

Tip: To cure yourself of flinching, have someone else load and/or prime your flintlock and then hand it to you safely.

Maybe it is loaded, but then it may not be ... maybe it is loaded and primed, but maybe not ... perhaps she just has the pan primed, so sometimes it may go off BANG and sometimes it will just flash ... or you'll just get the infamous 'kalack' as the flint hits the frizzen with no prime in the pan. YOU just don't know! And THAT is the whole point of the exercise.

Do that a few times and it will cure your flinch. FWIW, my friends and do this with each other prior to every hunting season, for MZLs ad other toys ...

I may have a slight flinch myself. I shoot offhand considerably better with my perc Hawken than I do with my flintlock longrifle. Yet the longrifle shoots better from a rest/bench. But that tells me the long, heavy rifle might just be a little more difficult to hold steady offhand. But also, the Hawken has more modern sights, which I'm sure matter as well.

rusticbob said:

That makes me feel better, maybe I have hope.

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The problem is most likely you're using modern bench technique and it's not suitable for muzzleloading. A modern stance will have a cheek weld and be hunched over the rifle, not a problem with high velocity rounds.

For consistency with a muzzleloader to carry to offhand, you should be as erect at the bench as possible to duplicate offhand. Your front hand needs to be getting the rifle just as you would for offhand and rest the 'back' of that hand on the rest. Nothing else should touch the bench. Pay close attention to canting, trigger hand arm position and head position. Past that follow through is critical.

Think I'm kidding? Ask PathfinderNC if what I just said works or not. I spent 30 min showing him how to do it and his bench and offhand groups all impact at the same place now.

1. Establish your natural point of aim before firing a shot. Verify it before firing additional shots.

2. Concentrate on perfect sight alignment while smoothly pressing the trigger and continue to concentrate on perfect sight alignment "till the bullet passes through the target." (You should be able to call your shot this way.)

3. DON'T try to force a shot as the sights move in your natural wobble area towards the center of the bullseye, as it is a guaranteed way to shoot a bad shot.

Though this "error chart" is old, it still holds true.



Gus

Oh, should have said that lots and lots of dry firing with a wood dummy flint will cause your wobble area to get as small as possible. It should also show you errors we all make.

Gus

I gave this ‘Shooter Error’ chart to my friend, lol!


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