Walker or Dragoon ?

TDM said:

Congratulations @Wizard1962 you’ll enjoy it!

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Thank you Sir !!

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Wizard1962 said:

Will check for the uberti short arbor situation when it arrives. Sounds like an easy fix if it has it.

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No need to check ( which I don't know how you're going to) , it IS short !!!
I don't understand how folks think it wouldn't be!!! Uberti has said they don't recognize a problem . . . and they all ( ALL) are !!! Sheesh!!

Mike

I have shot about 10 new uberti's in the last 2 years, colt and remington clones.
Some had nipples too short and would not fire.
2 or 3 it was all nipples to short. It was like they were the wrong nipples.
One had only 2 nipples too short.
I replaced the nipples and all worked.

I have a 1847 colt walker. the lever has never dropped on me.
I intend to get a dragoon soon to try but wanted the 1847 first.

However, I have only shot a few cylinders through each one.
The colt walker is pretty. A little unhandy but I like it for fun shooting.
Other than nipples there were no real problems.

I bought a couple of 1851 pietta's lately. I have not tried them yet.

We don't talk about conversion cylinders on this site go to our sister site modernmuzzleloading.com this is a traditional site only

Sam's correct. Enjoy but please don't discuss them hereabouts.

No need to check ( which I don't know how you're going to) , it IS short !!!
I don't understand how folks think it wouldn't be!!! Uberti has said they don't recognize a problem . . . and they all ( ALL) are !!! Sheesh!!

Mike
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"Sheesh" Mike!!!! ???? "All"????? We've had this discussion over on the CAS City Forum about Uberti arbor lengths a few times. Ya, I'll contend maybe most Uberti open top style Colt arbor's are to short, but not all. Some report that Uberti has corrected the problem. As I've posted here and on CAS I've advised that four of my fourteen open top Colts have their arbors were so close or right on that even my thinnest brass washer lengthened the arbor to much. The means of checking them without any washer in the hole was 'right-on'! I know you and the other Mike at CAS (Coff...) disagree with me, but I've got em. Others have also reported that they have Uberti Colts with properly fitting arbors. It can and does happen. You're a great 'Smith' and do wonderful work with revolvers, but I've been playing with cappers since 1972 and know a bit about them having taken em apart and working with them since that date. I understand the process of checking arbor fit and can tell when one needs help, but not 'ALL' do and those that need help benefit from your fix and/or Larsen Pettifogger's (CAS Forum) or by adding washers to lengthen the arbor. I don't want to nor will get into a cyber argument. Happy to discuss though.

I agree your fix of threading a set screw of some type into the end of the arbor, adjusting, and using some type of thread locker is a more permanent fix or that Pettifoggers method of drilling a hole into the arbor end and epoxying a Dillion Reloading brass button into the arbor and then grinding to fit are more permanent fixes. But... the washer fix while a temporary one, is effective. So effective that's all I've done and use yet. Hope to do the Dillion brass button fix one of these days.

To those of you with open style Colts 45D or Hoofhearted (Gary Barnes/GB Enterprises) would be happy to fix your short arbor if needed. There are others also. Ifin you do have some skill its not hard to do the check and do nothing but do a washer fix, while not permanent, its effective. You can go to CAS City forum, The Darksiders Section, and click on in the upper stickies a thread called "Tuning the Pietta Cap and Ball Revolver" by Larsen Pettifogger. Two links, both real informative-the first one will advise how to check the arbor fit.

One thing it doesn't mention but is real important is to check your arbor hole for any burrs or debris and also the arbor itself. Make sure there are no burrs on it especially in and around the slot in the arbor where the wedge goes. Problems there can give you a problem when doing the barrel twist when checking by binding the arbor within the hole, not allowing and giving a true reading. If you read the article, you'll know what I'm talking about. By following Pettifoggers instructions you can see if your arbor is off and how much.

Some say to use #10 split washers (stainless) or a 5 mm split washer which is the same diameter. Both are around the same diameter as the arbor (a bit smaller) and will fit into the arbor hole in the barrel assembly. I tried them but didn't care for the springy split washer. When reassembly there was too much spring into compressing the barrel and arbor to fit for the wedge. I went to four thicknesses of brass washers the same diameter as the arbor. Used .01, ,02, .03, and .04 thick washers. Used whatever combination needed to have a solid fit of the arbor in the arbor hole of the barrel. Put just a little grease on them and a tad in the arbor hole to keep things together and in place.. They stay pretty well when taking the barrel off, just need to watch them. Wrote down what each revolver would take.

One thing you need to be careful of though is that you don't increase your cylinder gap between the barrel and the cylinder. Use feeler gauges to check before doing arbor and if you do the washer route. Should be around .025- .03" if I recall. Like I advised the washer route isn't permanent, but is effective. Alot over on CAS have and still use it. 45D's and Pettifoggers are permanent, not super hard to do, but 45D and other Colt smiths can do ifin ya want to lay down the $$$. Not trying or aiming to take any business away from ya 45D, but just laying out info and the real story that not all Uberti Colt open top style need arbor fixes, most probably, but not all. Take care all!!!

Crow Choker said:

"Sheesh" Mike!!!! ???? "All"????? We've had this discussion over on the CAS City Forum about Uberti arbor lengths a few times. . . .

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Hey CC !!! No "arguments" with me !! I've been over here just trying to do a little "edumacation" as it seems to be a rather "untouched" subject!! Another member here and I have had some spirited discourse and I actually put up photos of how I make my spacers and the whole nine yards . . .
I've even pointed out how you can shoot some rather hot ( 21K psi and up !!) ammo ( after the correction) that would quickly render the "out of the box" setup to "wall hanger" status!
As far as the "all" goes, it pertains to all except the Piettas of late . . . and I say that because as of to date, after 100s of Uberti o.t. revolvers have been on my bench, not one of them has been "correct". It just kinda amazes me that some folks ( even you) seem to find 1,2 or a few that are good but I have yet to find 1 in 10 yrs!! I'm not calling you a liar (!!!!) I'm just amazed that I haven't had even 1!!!
Now, I don't know why folks trying do describe MY method as using a set screw!! That's totally wrong and in my opinion the worst way to do the correction( that would include any screwed in button that wasn't tight against the end of the arbor). If I used a set screw, why would I go through the trouble of making a spacer?? It's the SPACER ( a single s.s. has proven to be the best) that does the correcting!! The set screw in the end of the arbor reaches all the way and into the wedge slot! None of the screw should extend past the end of the arbor, it is purely an ADJUSTABLE WEDGE BEARING for the wedge to contact if/when ( because of fit/ wear). This will alleviate the need for new wedges.
A split washer is a single coil spring which I have never used even though the "other " Mike touts them. I guess with cowboy loads it really isn't a big big deal. Obviously the "friction fit" Uberti's can hold up somewhat to the light loads but I know for a fact if you are into "muscular" rounds the outcome will be a rattle trap sooner or later ( depending on the tolerance stack) and quite accelerated with the Horse pistols!!. About a 1/3 of my customers are cowboy shooters and most of the rest are hunters / long range shooters.

I still don't like the 90° "arbor test" in Larson's writings but it's there and that's that. "Cleaning up" the arbor so you CAN do the test ( which folks won't do and this is the biggest reason for the "mine's ok crowd in my opinion) seems counter productive as you are opening clearances that don't need to be ( aren't we trying to make them close tolerance revolvers?!). I've had folks just swear up and down that there's was fine and we'd go back and forth and on and on . . . only to end up with them having a short
arbor!!! Like it's a dreaded disease or something!! Lol All you really need to do is LOOK for a circular contact mark (witness mark) in bottom of the arbor hole and the end of the arbor ( I posted pics of this as well). It's like horses and water . . .
So, no argument here lol!!

Mike

Seems to be ALOT of debate on the situation with the Uberti arbors and how to check and what remedy to use. Some say there is a problem, some say they have not found the issue on their's.

I'm not a gunsmith, and just started my journey in the ML world. So after reading all of the post's and comments, a newbie like me finds it very confusing.

So let me ask this question please.

I just purchased a Uberti Whittneyville Dragoon. What risk will I be taking if I just use it as it came, use standard loads, no hot loads, no conversion cylinder etc. Am I at risk of damaging the pistol ?

Wizard1962 said:

Seems to be ALOT of debate on the situation with the Uberti arbors and how to check and what remedy to use. Some say there is a problem, some say they have not found the issue on their's.

I'm not a gunsmith, and just started my journey in the ML world. So after reading all of the post's and comments, a newbie like me finds it very confusing.

So let me ask this question please.

I just purchased a Uberti Whittneyville Dragoon. What risk will I be taking if I just use it as it came, use standard loads, no hot loads, no conversion cylinder etc. Am I at risk of damaging the pistol ?

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Well sir, first, congratulations on your new Whitneyville!! It's my favorite of the Dragoons.
If you're going to shoot just " middle of the road" loads, then you might be ok for a while. The MAIN reason for arbor correction is all about the "design of" and the ability to have the same revolver each time you reassemble it. The wedge isn't an "endshake setting device".
Shooting heavy loads without correction will cause material to be upset at the wedge slot (arbor slot and barrel) which obviously will cause tolerances to open up and poi to be "a moving target" !!!!! ( see what I did there ?!!). Anyway, it's really not debatable . . ., if the arbor is short, it's short!! If it's not, it's not! What's to debate? If it's short, things tear up and if it's not, your great grandkids will enjoy ( keep it clean!!).

Mike

Edit- just FYI, it's an easy fix for most folks to do. As I pointed out to Mr Crow Choker, I've posted pics in here of pretty much everything to help folks get their open-top revolvers "rock solid ". All of my open-tops and top strap revolvers are converted to unmentionables which is an excellent testing ground / proving ground for these revolvers.

Wizard1962 said:

Seems to be ALOT of debate on the situation with the Uberti arbors and how to check and what remedy to use. Some say there is a problem, some say they have not found the issue on their's.

I'm not a gunsmith, and just started my journey in the ML world. So after reading all of the post's and comments, a newbie like me finds it very confusing.

So let me ask this question please.

I just purchased a Uberti Whittneyville Dragoon. What risk will I be taking if I just use it as it came, use standard loads, no hot loads, no conversion cylinder etc. Am I at risk of damaging the pistol ?

Click to expand...

Many, many people over probably 50+ years of shooting Uberti
Army and Navy percussion revolvers have fired countless rounds through them, unaware of this "issue".

Like Mike says , the big horse pistols are the ones that need a little more attention in this area.

I have a Uberti .36 Navy that I've had since 2007 or so and I've put, no exaggeration probably 5,000+ rounds through it without any care of any short arbor and it's as tight as when it was new.

Honestly , I just stuffed tin foil into the arbor recesses of my Walkers until it made a solid "pillar" of metal and just kept shooting them . I know it's blasphemy but I took the easy and cheap road and I'll report my long term findings

Hey Mike (45D), always good to talk with ya. No problems at my end in Iwaa' (as we say it up in North Iowa). As I penned no problems with your style of arbor fixing. Yer a great asset to the percussion/conversion community. As I've always said, a permanent fix is better than my temporary one, but its cheap and easy and IMO effective. So effective I've been putting off doing a 'right' fix for too long. Ref full house loads, there is so much black powder (the wanna-be powders too) that ya can stuff into a percussion cylinder and have room for a ball and felt wad if using (which I do, wouldn't shoot a capper without using. Greasing the cylinders over top of ball is messy and not real effective. After ya fire the first shot it's all over . Tight ball, tight fitting caps, and a felt wad is light years ahead in preventing a chain fire.

Anyway I rarely fire what at least I consider 'full house loads in my cappers. Don't go the 'mouse-fart' loads alot of cowboy Action shooters do either. Trying to stuff every grain of powder into a chamber only results in alot of unburned powder spraying out in front of ya. Have read of and personally witnessed this. A short barrel even Walker size barrel needs length of barrel to fully consume X grains of powder. In my Dragoons and Walker the loadings are stiff, but not over the hill. I paid my dues back in the 70's and 80's in my early days of law enforcement of making a revolver into a handheld howitzer by handloading loading .357's to the hilt. Around 42-43 in Dragoons and 50 in the Walker. Army size 44's get 30 grains, 36 Navy guns around 18-20.

I still and others still contend that they have Uberti OT's with arbors of a right fit. Don't know why you haven't ran across any yet, possibly due to what a person see's as good fit and ill fit, their criteria of how it should be. Makes for a good conservation topic anyway. I apologize, I thought your fix was an adjustable screw, screwed into the arbor end and then turned for adjustment. Must be one of the other fixes I've read about. I know someone in the Colt OT arbor needing TLC does it that way. I hadn't seen or read of your fix for some time. I did find some pictures and explanation of your method. Very effective method. High fives to ya!! As far as a split washer, I agree with ya, always considered it nothing but a stiff spring and being it was basically one thickness for the size (diameter) needed, I've always thought it may be to much or not enough. The time I tired it it was to much of a pain having to push the barrel in and also setting the wedge in as their was resistance to some degree. I agree to many cowboy action shooters shoot to many powder puff loads and IMO try to turn a single action into a ad-hoc semiauto in terms of rounds being expelled. Why I'm more into NCOWS vs SASS.

Ref Pettifoggers method (twist and check) of checking arbor length, guess other than doing a bunch of testing and measurements with calipers, Blue Dyken, and other things, its the easiest and best going for checking. In regards to checking the arbor and arbor hole for burrs and such, I wasn't advocating using files, stones, grit paper, etc to ream out the arbor, arbor hole and wedge hole. Rather just check for any metal burrs on and within than may prevent turning the barrel on the arbor. I had one Colt OT style revolver that twisted a bit hard and showed a perfect receiver/barrel match. After taking a few burs off around the wedge slot and inside the hole, turning was acceptable, but an uneven barrel/receiver match. Took a couple of washers of different thicknesses to get a good match. Anywhoo as Rifle always says..... have a day/night whenever ya read this. Crow Choker

People should just shoot more and overthink less

Wizard1962 said:

Seems to be ALOT of debate on the situation with the Uberti arbors and how to check and what remedy to use. Some say there is a problem, some say they have not found the issue on their's.

I'm not a gunsmith, and just started my journey in the ML world. So after reading all of the post's and comments, a newbie like me finds it very confusing.

So let me ask this question please.

I just purchased a Uberti Whittneyville Dragoon. What risk will I be taking if I just use it as it came, use standard loads, no hot loads, no conversion cylinder etc. Am I at risk of damaging the pistol ?

Click to expand...

Howdy Wizard. Don't let 45 D and I confuse ya. We're like two drivers heading for the same destination but taking different routes, both will get there eventually. The basic answer to your question if it will be safe to shoot your WhitVille outa the box. After ya clean the shipping oil and such off, basically YES. Make sure your nipples are clean and cleared before your first loading.

1)There's a few things ya should check for though. I'd check the arbor fit so ya will know. The barrel/receiver twist test is the fastest and easiest. Also check for any burrs beforehand in the arbor hole and the arbor. On the arbor there could be some machining burrs when the wedge slot was cut and not removed properly. If it is off, the style of shooting you posted isn't going to hurt it.

2) Check the screws on the revolver to make sure they're tight. They don't need to be torqued, but good and snug. I've seen a few out of the box that were a tad loose.

3) Check your timing by working the action. You don't have to power back the hammer, but don't go real slow as in shooting you wouldn't and the big Ol Dragoon cylinder needs to be shown who's boss. The Walker and Dragoon cylinders involve alot of mass to move and work better with steady purposeful motion. If yer not familiar with how a 3 click action works the 1st click will start the cylinder moving as the 'hand' is pushing on one of the cylinder ratchets (which would also be the half-cock position and put the cylinder in free spin. The 2nd click is the cylinder bolt coming up to engage one of the cylinder bolt holes to lock the cylinder in place. and the 3rd click is the bolt dropping into the appropriate hole, also it is when the hammer sear and trigger sear lock up.

Good way to see if your timing is good is to watch the hammer and cylinder while listening to the clicks. When you hear that 2nd click, the hammer will be close to being in firing position, but the cylinder won't be locked. After that 2nd click the cylinder if you look at it will almost have the nipple in position. On the left side of the recoil shield at the top there should be a gap about the width of one of the cylinder bolt cutouts on the left side of the recess cut into the cylinder for the nipple. If you look at the cylinder bolt cutout just ahead of the nipple that will be fired you'll see that the cylinder needs to rotate a bit clockwise yet to line up and lock. Pulling the hammer all of the way back will cause the cylinder to reach its needed spot, the bolt to drop into the bolt hole, and the hammer and trigger sears to lock up. This in a nutshell is how it was shown and explained to me some years back. Ifin all of these points are good, fire away and enjoy. Just basic stuff.

Hope this wasn't to confusing-I read it and wondered. Ifin ya are aware of this, hopefully someone will benefit from it. Enjoy shooting yer WhitVille, after shooting a while if any bugs appear, they can be rectified. Sometimes the stoning of certain parts will work wonders. I've taken revolvers after doing the checks and shot the be-geebers outa them. Honest truth is before knowing these things back in the early days, just took em outa the box, cleaned and shot. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. 45D I'm sure also would have no problem. Have known him for some time from the CAS Forum.
I know you'll really like the Dragoon. Crow Choker

I'm glad the internet wasn't a thing when I first started shooting cap and ballers, and military rifle-muskets or I'd have been too busy checking things and fixing "issues" instead of shooting

I had an Armi-San Marco I shot all through the mid-late 90s with Pyrodex and cleaned with RemOil, and never had any problems until I started over analyzing everything and then by the mid-2000s all my cap and ballers had "issues "

Same here CC!! I think Hoof used to add material ( weld) to the arbor but I think he uses a set screw now ( like you were describing). I would never trust that type setup with what I shoot !! I'll keep my eyes peeled for those "elusive" Uberti's!! Lol!!

Stantheman86 said:

People should just shoot more and overthink less

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I'm not the type person to leave things alone so there's no way I could ever be happy with an " out of the box" Italian reproduction !! Fortunately there's a LOT of folks that feel the same way !!!
There is so much to do to them that after 10- 12 hours with one in my shop, it's not anything like what it was when it arrived.

If I left them "as is", I would never be able to shoot MY favorite revolvers. Box stock offerings can't withstand what I shoot without needing constant repair and ultimately replacement.
As they are now, my great grandkids will enjoy them!!

Mike

Stantheman86 said:

Many, many people over probably 50+ years of shooting Uberti
Army and Navy percussion revolvers have fired countless rounds through them, unaware of this "issue".

Like Mike says , the big horse pistols are the ones that need a little more attention in this area.

I have a Uberti .36 Navy that I've had since 2007 or so and I've put, no exaggeration probably 5,000+ rounds through it without any care of any short arbor and it's as tight as when it was new.

Honestly , I just stuffed tin foil into the arbor recesses of my Walkers until it made a solid "pillar" of metal and just kept shooting them . I know it's blasphemy but I took the easy and cheap road and I'll report my long term findings

Click to expand...

Stantheman86 said:

People should just shoot more and overthink less

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Ya, some truth to that. But I've seen firearms that the owners of the past and present didn't care for both through negligence and not knowing that looked like or were junk, battered cylinders, screws, out of time. Back in my early days of cap and ball percussion shooting I (and my shooting companions) didn't know squat about some of the ways and means to keep out cappers running and running long. We didn't abuse them and cleaned after shooting, but back then the information wasn't around and known. We just shot em as is and figured all the problems we had were due to old 1800 design flaws. And back then the quality of repro's was alot less than what is encountered today. My first capper back in '72 would at times need help from my left hand to finish rotation, caps would fall off when firing, awww-those were the days. Agree, a person can overthink, but there are certain measures and things that need to be checked and rectified. Have a good day/night. CC

Morning. Great big THANK YOU to everyone for your input and advice.

One more question and then I'll shut up ..... lol

Been reading about Revolver tuning and the benefits of having it done.
What's the average cost for having it done on my Uberti Dragoon ?

Thanks
Bill

Wizard1962 said:

Morning. Great big THANK YOU to everyone for your input and advice.

One more question and then I'll shut up ..... lol

Been reading about Revolver tuning and the benefits of having it done.
What's the average cost for having it done on my Uberti Dragoon ?

Thanks
Bill

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I would think you're looking at around $200 for a basic tune-up that addresses the common problems. This ought to include arbor correction, a cap-post (which keeps the spent caps from falling into the works and jamming things up), timing and trigger job. Worth every penny, too. I have a First Model Dragoon that was worked over by Goon's Gun Works and I like it a lot.

A few comments on loading levers... I have never owned a Walker. Everyone who talks about them describes the loading lever dropping, and strategies used to keep this from happening. I get the fact that there is a lot of cachet in owning and shooting a Walker, but it is worth noting that not many of them were made, and they were quickly replaced with later models, almost certainly because of flaws in the design. I would equate shooting a Walker with driving an Edsel... Maybe a high cool factor, but it's just not that great of a car.

The later Whitneyville and Dragoon revolvers had a latch to keep the lever from dropping. The earlier ones (Whitneyville, 1st, 2nd, and some of the 3rd) had a vertical latch. The Third model, I believe, had more variations than the previous ones, and one thing that changed was the development of a horizontal latch on some of the later Third Models. This was an improvement, and was incorporated into the later Colt percussion revolvers. Of the reproductions that are available, I don't know if all of the Third Models have this improvement or not. Uberti made a "replica" of a Tucker & Sherrard Texas Dragoon maybe 40-45 years ago that was based on a Second Model Colt Dragoon, with the square-backed trigger guard and rectangular bolt notches, but it had the improved horizontal lever latch. This was essentially a "fantasy" revolver, loosely based on the original Tucker & Sherrards, but not a faithful copy. I sure would like to have one, though. It looks like a nice gun, but they are pretty scarce.

In any event, the Third Model Dragoon gives up nothing in size, weight, powder capacity, and so forth, to the 1st and 2nd Models, but it has some built-in practical features that might make it more fun to shoot. Or maybe not... It might not make that much difference to an individual. And, I'm not trying to talk you out of a Walker, if that's what you want. I'm just throwing a few more thoughts into the discussion.

Finally, I don't know how relevant this is, but Gun Tests online did a comparative study of Cimarron, Colt, and EMF Second Model Dragoons in 2006. It is outdated, and they only looked at Second Models, but the comments are enlightening, the tests were well-conducted, and it makes a pretty good read. This link will take you to the web page: Second Dragoons on Trial

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thanks Notchy Bob !!

This gentleman just wanted a cool Colt Horse Pistol repro to probably shoot once in a while and display, and now he's being led down the Rabbit Hole of Goons work-overs, short arbors, guns beating themselves up etc etc

The knowledge contained in this forum is the best in the world and if you ask a question you're definitely going to get the best info out there here

If the OP just wants to punch paper here and there I think he'll be just fine with the gun as it left Uberti, or at most he can drop a couple 10mm washers in like I did with my Leech & Rigdon . Or stuff foil in the arbor hole

If he wants to make it the best it can be , he can send it to Goons

Never in history have blackpowder enthusiasts had this many options