Centre Fire Patent

I have enclosed a couple of images that may be of interest to members ,it is a centre fire percussion gun patented by Bentley a gun maker of Liverpool see the trade label .He used this patent not only on sxs percussion guns but also on s/b percussion and rifles and pistols The centre fire patent was used by several gun makers in different form of which James Rowntree was one .
Feltwad

Thanks for that, I’d never even seen an illustration; could we have a photo of the breech face and the nipples?
That woulld round off a very interesting post.

Thank you, @Feltwad , for showing another fine old gun! What a beautiful double!

Colonial Boy said:

Thanks for that, I’d never even seen an illustration; could we have a photo of the breech face and the nipples?
That woulld round off a very interesting post.

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I agree with @Colonial Boy . Never having examined an ignition system of this type, I can't quite visualize how it is built.

I am also intrigued by the other items in the case. I believe I see a quantity of thick wads in the lower left corner, and some thinner wads on the right. Any comments or additional images of the tools and components would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Notchy Bob

Need better pictures of the barrel breech. From what I see of the breech when enlarging the top photo, the nipples are merely positioned to inject fire into the center of the breech instead of the upper quadrant like most percussion guns.

What he may call "centerfire" in his patent may be nothing like what we envision as centerfire today For over a century American made percussion caps were labeled as "Center Fire" or Central Fire". An old gunsmith explained to me years ago, that they were called centerfire because the ignition fire goes through a hole in the center of the nipple. Whether that is true, who knows. Some of the early percussion guns used brass plungers with an end coated with fulminate, that struck an internal anvil another percussion system used a tiny folded envelope of fulminate with a tube attacked. the tube was to be placed through a touch hole and when struck, the fire from the envelope was to be forced through the tube in the touch hole to ignite the powder. Then there was the Draper Cartridge which was a centerfire, percussion breech loading cartridge. It had a heavy base with a percussion nipple and a cap would be placed on that nipple and struck by a centerfire rifle firing pin to ignite. Morris primed cartridges had a washer with holes in it preed into the inside of the thin balloon head cartridge. The cartridge could be ignited either by a rim fire striker or a center fire striker.

What was the date of the patent? What about it made it centerfire? If it was merely the placement of the nipples, Colt's revolvers also did that.

More information please.

Enclosed are extra images which should help
Feltwad

Good morning Feltwad,
A very nice and unusual old gun!
I know Sam'l and Charles Smith made a good few of these "Central Fire" guns.
I had one until recently marked to a retailer and engraved "Improved Central fire"
It had hammers with the removable skirt and strikers.
Don't want to clutter your thread so will only attach one photo!

Pukka Bundook said:

Good morning Feltwad,
A very nice and unusual old gun!
I know Sam'l and Charles Smith made a good few of these "Central Fire" guns.
I had one until recently marked to a retailer and engraved "Improved Central fire"
It had hammers with the removable skirt and strikers.
Don't want to clutter your thread so will only attach one photo!

View attachment 188132

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Hi Pukka
Have just finished restoration on a similar one like yours the hammer nose is detachable with a reinforced barrels for the first 12 inches from the breech
Feltwad

Notchy Bob said:

Thank you, @Feltwad , for showing another fine old gun! What a beautiful double!



I agree with @Colonial Boy . Never having examined an ignition system of this type, I can't quite visualize how it is built.

I am also intrigued by the other items in the case. I believe I see a quantity of thick wads in the lower left corner, and some thinner wads on the right. Any comments or additional images of the tools and components would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Notchy Bob

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The contents of the Mahogany case are has follows Barrels and stock, Powder flask and Shot Flask ,1/2 inch Felt Wads . Tin Joyce percussion Caps, Oil bottle , Nipple Key, turnscrew and 1/8 Card wads not forgetting Bentley Trade Label
Feltwad

Thank you for showing and explaining all of the beautiful arms that you come into contact with. Wouldn’t this be considered an early example of inline ignition?

Thank you, @Feltwad . I appreciate the information as well as the additional pictures.

One could make the case that this is an early form of "inline" ignition, I suppose, with the nipple centrally mounted directly in line with the bore, yet the cap is struck by an external hammer. I have never seen one of these before. It looks like a good idea, really. I'm sure ignition was positive and fast. I wonder why it didn't catch on and become more popular.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

What was the date? There were several guns of the 1850's and 1860's that used in-line nipples. The early Wurffleins made in Philadelphia. The Colt revolvers. Cva made a box lock with an in line nipple called (IRRC) the Blazer. Pedersoli made a rolling block percussion with inline nipple. Of the old American rifles, I can only remember the Wurffleins.

zimmerstutzen said:

What was the date? There were several guns of the 1850's and 1860's that used in-line nipples. The early Wurffleins made in Philadelphia. The Colt revolvers. Cva made a box lock with an in line nipple called (IRRC) the Blazer. Pedersoli made a rolling block percussion with inline nipple. Of the old American rifles, I can only remember the Wurffleins.

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Joseph Bentleys centre fire percussion gun was patented in 1844 Patent No 10280 hope that helps
Feltwad

The Percussion nipples we are all familiar with existed by that date. Was it just the placement of the nipple? I tried to look up the patent, but apparently, only can be seen if I go the the British National Library.

zimmerstutzen said:

The Percussion nipples we are all familiar with existed by that date. Was it just the placement of the nipple? I tried to look up the patent, but apparently, only can be seen if I go the the British National Library.

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Joseph Bentleys patent for a centre fire was in use in 1840-41 that was when this gun was produced complete with the trade label , he did not patent it till July 30 July 1844 Patent Number 10280 with a 3 year difference before it was patented
Feltwad

Thanks Feltwad, much appreciated information and thanks to other posters as well.

Feltwad,
Can I ask regarding the one similar to my old gun, who was the retailer?
I have seen Jackson and this Winton I attached photo of.
there will be others.
When looking down the barrels, the pin of light is seen right in the middle of the barrel. True central fire!

Those locks on yours would take a lot of making!!
Top flight job.

Feltwad said:

Joseph Bentleys patent for a centre fire was in use in 1840-41 that was when this gun was produced complete with the trade label , he did not patent it till July 30 July 1844 Patent Number 10280 with a 3 year difference before it was patented
Feltwad

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Still unanswered. What about it was "centre fire"? The percussion cap and nipple were being incorporated on guns as early as 1822. The Eley brothers added percussion caps to their sporting offerings in 1837. The Colt Paterson patent had "in-line" percussion nippples on the 1836 patent drawings.

Just trying to figure out what Mr. Bentley's patent added to existing technology, if anything.

zimmerstutzen said:

Still unanswered. What about it was "centre fire"? The percussion cap and nipple were being incorporated on guns as early as 1822. The Eley brothers added percussion caps to their sporting offerings in 1837. The Colt Paterson patent had "in-line" percussion nippples on the 1836 patent drawings.

Just trying to figure out what Mr. Bentley's patent added to existing technology, if anything.

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Zimmerstutzen, apparently it was his application of these "center fire nipples" to a double barrel gun

OLUT said:

Zimmerstutzen, apparently it was his application of these "center fire nipples" to a double barrel gunView attachment 188408

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Thank you so much. As I suspected it was placement of the nipples and not really a new technique or invention. Colt had that in his 1836 patent drawings.

THANK YOU, Feltwad, I'm not going to pick this apart or nit pick. It's COOL , I didn't know about it much less ever see one. So now I'm a little smarter due to you, again thanks.....Be Safe >>>>Wally